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9.14 pm
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome): Electoral reform and changes to the voting system can sometimes be an acquired taste, and I agree with the Home Secretary that it is not the prime topic of conversation in Kingsbury Episcopi or in his constituency. Despite that, we have had a largely well-informed debate this evening. TheHome Secretary was almost unnervingly flexible, accommodating, understanding and pluralistic--it quite took my breath away to hear the extent to which he was prepared to compromise his initial position to accommodate others. That is a good sign for the future. The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) talked about the "Straw compromise". I hope that it will be called the Straw poll, which seems appropriate.
There was a feeling that the tectonic plates of the body politic were moving a little, and that we were seeing signs of the development of a truly modern system. The only problem with that analysis was the response from the Conservative spokesman, the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney). Some movement in the tectonic plates may have occurred, but the Conservative party still seems stuck in permafrost--it was a Jurassic response to the debate.
The right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire started by saying that the first-past-the-post system could not be described as indefensible, but it is indefensible in the context of European elections. We heard about the constituency link of MEPs, but any genuine link between one individual and the 500,000 electors he or she represents remains to be proven.
We heard how the new system would restrict voter choice, but I am at a loss to understand that argument. If one is presented with a list of possible candidates, rather than a single candidate from a party, there is, by definition, an extension of choice. We heard the argument about whom an individual elector would go to if he had a problem. At the moment, the voter has one option--to go to the one person who represents his European constituency. Under the new system, the voter will have a choice of MEP. One might meet an MEP with greater
empathy with the problems, say, of lone mothers than another. One might meet an expert on agriculture, or an expert on industry. The voter will have increased choice.
We heard a comprehensive rubbishing of the region system. I find it difficult to reconcile that with the fact that the Conservative party set up those regions. The Conservative Government set up the Government office for the south-west--indeed, the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) was once the Minister responsible. We used to enjoy the occasions when he trundled along the A303 and the M5 and down our country lanes to find out what was going on in the south-west.
The most astonishing element of the Conservative argument was the patronising assumption that the voter would not be able to understand the change in the system. Never mind that every other voter in Europe can understand a different system; or that voters in Northern Ireland can do so. The right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire was asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) about the situation in Northern Ireland, and he signally failed to answer. I believe that what is good for every other citizen of the European Union may perhaps have something to commend it to citizens of the United Kingdom.
We heard a level-headed argument from the hon. Member for Stroud. He said a lot of the things that I wanted to say, which is not surprising as he comes from a similar constituency.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Burden) spoke of a distortion that had taken place in the European parliamentary groups as a result of the present system--of the fact that those groups fluctuated massively in terms of strength because of the first-past-the-post system in the United Kingdom. He could have gone on to say that the representation of the United Kingdom within those European parliamentary groups also fluctuates massively on exactly the same basis. That means that the United Kingdom is often under-represented in the Socialist group--or the Conservative group, or the European Liberals, Democrats and Reformers group--in the European Parliament.
I appreciate that to be too interested in, and to express too great a knowledge of, different electoral systems displays an acquaintance with anoraks that it may not be wise to admit to in all circumstances. We could have gone on to discuss the other systems that exist--for example, the Hagenbach-Bischoff and the Hare-Niermayer systems. I feel that, in Committee, we need to return to the argument about the relative merits of the d'Hondt and Sainte-Lague systems.
Earlier, the Home Secretary expressed the view that Sainte-Lague was probably not a Belgian but a Frenchman. He was, in fact, a French mathematician who developed, in 1910, a system that has been used successfully ever since. Opposition Members still believe that that system has something to commend it. We do not think that there is any great difference between an arithmetical progression that goes one, two, three, four, five and one that goes one, three, five, seven, nine. Similarly, one system produces a more proportional result than the other.
I believe that a much more important debate concerns the relative merits of the open and closed systems. I was gratified to hear in the Home Secretary's speech that the closed system was, at the very least, ajar. We shall want to press that. We believe that there is a great deal to commend an open system in which we give the electorate that extra dimension of choice that means that different candidates--not just the candidates selected by the party machine--are presented to the electorate, and can express their view.
I shall end my speech shortly, but I should like to leave one more thought with the Ministers. The Committee of the Regions is not part of the European Parliament, but we have criticised it many times over the years for its lack of democratic ability. At present, it is a quango appointed by the Government, not properly reflective of proportionality. Could it be that this regional system, and this regional proportional representation, might perform the additional duty of providing a template enabling a better representation for the Committee of the Regions, so that local government could be properly reflected in those who were sent to represent the country?
We welcome the thrust of the Bill. We shall debate the detail in Committee. We particularly welcome the cap on party spending on a national basis, which is long overdue. We shall strongly welcome a Bill that will provide for party registration in due course, especially if it prevents the "passing off" that we have seen in recent elections. It should not be necessary for a party to win with a majority of 21,000 in a particular constituency to avoid the distortions that a rogue candidate might introduce into the system.
Mr. James Clappison (Hertsmere):
Although he described my party as Jurassic and coated in permafrost, I agree with the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) that we have had a largely well-informed debate with some interesting contributions. Among Government Members, we have heard from the hon. Members for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Burden) and for Stroud (Mr. Drew), who made an honourable attempt to put the general case for proportional representation, although I do not agree with them.
We also heard from the hon. Members for Wyre Forest (Mr. Lock) and for Brigg and Goole (Mr. Cawsey) and, representing the Liberal Democrats, from the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) and the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome.
We have heard some excellent speeches from Conservative Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) made some telling points. Myhon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) is the voice of constitutional integrity and he made some important principled observations that should be borne in mind by hon. Members of all parties, especially as--some new Members may not know this--he always says what he thinks, regardless of whether it brings comfort to his own party or to others.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) made a powerful speech that chimed in with that of the hon. Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham), in which there were some important points to which the House should pay attention. My right hon. and learned Friend hit the nail on the head when he talked about the rushed way in which the matter had been introduced. We have witnessed some of the consequences of that, beginning with what the Home Secretary said about reconsidering part of the Bill.
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