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Mr. Burden: The hon. Gentleman is talking about complexity for the elector. Under the proposed system, the elector would put a cross on a ballot paper, which is precisely what happens under the current system. How is that more complicated?
Mr. Clappison: For reasons that I shall go into in a moment, the elector is given a simple choice as between parties, but if he tries to understand the new system, heaven help him. I agree with the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing), who said that she would like to take a closer look at the Home Secretary's analysis in the morning; it will bear careful study.
At the moment, I am clear about only three things arising from the Home Secretary's speech. First, Mr. d'Hondt was a Belgian; secondly, Mr. Sainte-Lague was not a Belgian, but if he had been in America he would have been called Webster; and thirdly, in Sweden the divisor would be 1.4.
Following the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon, we found out that the Home Secretary was wrong in at least one of those, because Mr. d'Hondt should have been Mynheer d'Hondt, because he was a Fleming. The Home Secretary made various comments about Belgians. I am cautious about following him down the road of national stereotypes. The Home Secretary asked whether we could think of any other famous Belgians. The first name that sprang to my mind was that of Hercule Poirot, although even his powers would have been suffocated if he had tried to understand this system.
My hon. Friend the Member for Poole has helpfully told me that there are at least two other systems, the Hagenbach-Bischoff system and the Hare-Niermayer
system. I am grateful to the Home Secretary for not mentioning them, although we have been threatened with them in Committee. My hon. Friend also tells me that a Mr. Hare has invented a British system.
Mr. Clappison:
The Liberal Democrats know about him; he gave rise to the expression "hare-brained scheme". The proposed system is far from straightforward. The Home Secretary's claim that it has the virtue of simplicity takes a lot of swallowing.
More seriously, there is the problem of closed lists. The Home Secretary made some comments on the course that he will take. He is wise to take that course because, to judge from the debate, there was no support, from any party, for the closed list system. The complete lack of enthusiasm among Labour Members was noticeable. Given that Labour's manifesto committed it to introducing proportional representation for the European elections--it was a bald commitment with no details--why did the Government plump for the closed list system, which can be only a recipe for central party control? That was widely commented on at the time of its unveiling. My right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary rightly quoted The Times saying that it would be bad for democracy and would put power in the hands of the party machine and take it away from individual MEPs.
We are entitled to an explanation of why the Home Secretary plumped for the proposed system from all the systems that could have been adopted. Can the decision be entirely unconnected with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon described as the ethnic cleansing going on among Labour Members of the European Parliament? Is it a complete coincidence that the Labour party was trying to impose a gag on its MEPs? Labour Members would do well to consider the terms of the gag that was put on their colleagues in the European Parliament by the code of practice, which stated:
Now the Home Secretary has backed down in the face of all the adverse comments about closed lists and said that he is prepared to put in the Library a document setting out details of the Belgian and Danish systems. We await that with interest. Having taken that step in the face of a lack of support for his proposals, the Minister owes it to the House to say whether we will be allowed a little longer to consider the matter and a fuller debate. If the Government are sincere about consultation and debate, will they allow longer debate, and put off the Committee stage until after Christmas?
I bear in mind the comment of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham about the way that the Government rushed in. As recently as June, Lord Williams of Mostyn told the Lords that the Government had no plans to bring forward this legislation. [Interruption.] I hear the Whips saying no. Perhaps that is not a good omen for an open debate. In those circumstances, can we have more time for reflection and consultation? That would be in the Government's interest as much as anyone's, given the situation this evening.
The next deficiency of the Bill is the breaking of the link between individual MEPs and constituencies, on which several Labour Members commented. Like the Liberal Democrats, they said that it is difficult for MEPs at present to represent constituencies of 500,000 electors. How much more difficult will it be for them to represent those vast regions, coming as one on a list of Members representing 4 million or 5 million people? The hon. Member for Northfield said that his Euro-constituency of Birmingham, East was too big. Is it more difficult for an MEP to represent Birmingham, East than to represent the West Midlands region, in which 5 million electors reside in Birmingham and thecounties of Warwickshire, Worcestershire, Staffordshire, Herefordshire and Shropshire?
Mr. Burden:
My point was that I found it somewhat curious that I live in the European constituency of Birmingham, East when my house is in the west of Birmingham. As for the West Midlands, it is acquiring a major identity as a region and it is an economic unit. There is a regional agenda and Europe should be part of that regional agenda.
Mr. Clappison:
Does working in such a vast area make it any easier for the MEP to do justice to his constituents?
Mr. Clappison:
The hon. Gentleman says yes, but I am doubtful. What about the South East region, stretching from Milton Keynes and Oxford down to Kent and Dover? Why stop there? It would make about as much sense to go on to Calais and take in part of northern France. My Hertsmere constituents will find themselves part of the Eastern region, with a total of eight MEPs on a list representing 4 million people. Would it be easier for those MEPs to represent that vast region than for my constituents to remain in the Hertfordshire European constituency, close to Hertfordshire county council, the local health authorities and all the relevant authorities? That is true up and down the country.
As the Bill stands, electors will not even be told whom they are voting for, because there is no authority in the Bill for the names of MEP candidates to appear on the ballot paper, although I notice that they appear in the Government press pack. How can it be possible for independent candidates to attempt the feat of representing whole regions, but not for candidates representing parties? I note that the Liberal Democrat candidates appear in the press pack unzipped--by which I mean that ladies and gentlemen do not appear next to each other--and that independents are represented by David Sutch of the Monster Raving Loony party. I take that to be Screaming Lord Sutch, who will have been deprived of his peerage under the new arrangements--presumably he will be standing for the people's Monster Raving Loony party in future.
To use the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon, it is a piece of arrogance on the
part of the Government to say that electors do not need a constituency MEP. We are told in the Government's question-and-answer document that:
Mr. Clappison:
That is exactly my question. What have all the Labour MEPs been doing all these years of going around their European constituencies? Are they poor deluded souls who have spent years labouring under the misapprehension that they are doing something useful? All their work has been dismissed by the Government's sleight of hand. We are told:
"Members will support party policy as defined in the Labour party manifesto, including the commitment to proportional representation, and no member shall give statements to the media about any aspect of the party selection procedures, which are a matter for internal party discussion and decision."
That was the gag. So much for open government.
"People do not enjoy, or need, the same close links with their MEP as they do with their MP, so it is possible to elect MEPs on a regional basis."
Mr. Syms:
Why not?
"MEPs' links with their constituents are not as close as those of MPs and the public, for the most part, lacks the detailed knowledge which would enable them to make an informed choice between candidates on a party's list".
What a piece of arrogance on the part of the Government: wiping away the constituency system just like that; wiping away the link between individual MEPs and their constituents; creating a system of remote party placemen miles away from their constituency; and denying electors any opportunity to bring to account MEPs of whom they do not approve.
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