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9.39 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Howarth): The hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) has just accused the Government of arrogance. Some accusations I am prepared to answer in detail and in full, but I am not prepared to accept an accusation of arrogance from the Conservative party, given its record in the past 18 years and even since the general election. The accusation comes from a party that has never yet revealed where one penny piece of its party funding comes from. It says that it still cannot reveal its funding for the past two general elections.
The Conservative party cannot work out a way of electing its leader, which in some way involves the party electorate. Yet the Conservative party accuses the Labour party of arrogance, when the Labour party has devised an electoral college system to elect its leader. So we will not take any lessons from the hon. Gentleman or his party. The Conservative party has a long way to go in its internal democracy before it will be in a position to lecture anyone in the House or elsewhere on party democracy.
We have had an interesting and, for some hon. Members I suspect, educational debate. The hon. Member for Hertsmere conceded that the more he listened to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, the more he understood the d'Hondt system and its variants. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that I have sat through my right hon. Friend's explanation of the matter on four occasions
now and I am becoming, next to him, the most undisputed expert in the House on all the aspects of the lists that may be used.
It has been a useful debate. In a moment, I shall try to deal with some of the specific questions that have been raised, but first I want to express satisfaction that at long last a system for electing Members of the European Parliament, which is appropriate, on its own merits and because it fulfils our obligation as members of the European Union, is about to be delivered. Some hon. Members--admittedly, one or two Labour Members--are concerned that the Bill is the thin end of the wedge and that once we concede the point for the European parliamentary elections, we shall end up with a system of proportional representation for the House of Commons. It is too early to say that.
We made a commitment to set up an independent commission--not a Labour party creature, as the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire(Sir B. Mawhinney) suggested--to examine the most appropriate voting systems and proportional voting systems for the House of Commons. Once the commission has made recommendations--this is the important point--it will be up to not the House of Commons or the Government, but the electorate, to decide in a referendum on the most appropriate way of electing Members of Parliament.
Mr. Hogg:
If the hon. Gentleman is prepared to set up an independent commission and put the result to a referendum, why not adopt the same procedure for the European Parliament?
Mr. Howarth:
The right hon. and learned Gentleman should have listened to what was said earlier and what I said a few moments ago. Perhaps at this point I should bring in the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire. The difficulty for Conservative Members is the fact that we are in the process of delivering a manifesto commitment. I know that that concept is alien to them. They stand for election on a set of promises and pledges and abandon them immediately after the election, but the Labour Government have a clear understanding that we made promises to the electorate. We did not make long lists of promises. They were focused. They were promises that we knew we could deliver. The promise to introduce a new voting system for elections to the European Parliament was one that we knew we could deliver.
The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) is well respected in the House. During the period of office of the previous Government, he contributed a great deal to our understanding of regional policy and how regional boundaries were drawn. He made an interesting point in his speech--he said that he always worried when someone used the word "appropriate", which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had used. He went so far as to say, perhaps injudiciously, that as a Minister he never allowed the use of the word "appropriate" in correspondence. If someone digs around, they may prove him wrong on that.
Mr. Curry:
"Appropriate" is civil servant language for, "We know best."
Mr. Howarth:
I take the right hon. Gentleman's point that he is uncomfortable with the use of the word
In the debate, confusion has arisen between the nature and functions of this Parliament--although my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary explained them clearly--and the fundamentally different functions of the European Parliament. In establishing an independent commission to consider possible voting systems to the House, it is our intention to study a range of systems, but those systems should be ones that are considered most appropriate for the House of Commons.
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary explained that the difference between the House of Commons and the European Parliament is that our system of government is drawn from the democracy of the House of Commons. Ministers either sit in the House of Lords or, in overwhelming numbers, whichever party is in power, are drawn from the House of Commons. Of course, there will be a difference and of course constituencies play an important part in that function. I shall say something about that later.
The issues raised are important, and I shall try to deal with them in order of priority. If I miss anything out because of the time available, I am sure that hon. Members will write to me or let me know, and I shall try to make up for any deficiency at a later date.
The right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire fell into the trap of confusing the application of proportional voting systems for electing Parliaments from which Governments are drawn with proportional systems for electing representative assemblies, such as the European Parliament. I believe that he came into the Chamber with a speech against proportional representation in general and decided, even though my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary explained the considerable difference between the two cases, that he had to soldier on with the speech that he had brought, although it was not appropriate to the Bill. However, he raised some points that warrant a reply.
The right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire said that the Bill was a dry run for one to introduce a system of proportional representation for the House of Commons. He believed that a secret deal had been struck behind closed doors by an unspecified person--the Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary or someone else--and that the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) was involved.
There is no hidden agenda--no dry run. An investigation will be carried out by an independent commission, and at the end of that process a referendum will be held. If we had struck a secret deal with the Liberal Democrats, it would have been right for us to bring the entire electorate into the secret, because in the end they will take that decision. There is no such conspiracy. The right hon. Gentleman may search for conspiracies as much as he likes; they do not exist. We believe that the
electorate are the most appropriate people to choose the system for electing the House of Commons, and we intend them to take that decision.
There has been a great deal of debate on both sides of the House about constituencies. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham) was one of those who spoke on the subject. The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) made a passionate and at times eloquent--
Sir Brian Mawhinney:
When the independent commission comes up with an alternative PR proposal to put to the electorate in a referendum, will the Government support that proposal?
Mr. Howarth:
The right hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see what the commission comes up with. Let me be clear about this: I do not think that any Minister standing at the Dispatch Box or--if they were responsible--any Opposition spokesman would sign a blank cheque without knowing the precise terms that an independent commission would come up with. I am not prepared to do that; it would not be sensible.
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