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Sir Norman Fowler: The hon. Gentleman should not use extravagant language if he does not have the means of following it through. He knows perfectly well that two simple questions can be asked: they are the propositions that the hon. Gentleman and the Government have advanced. That is what a referendum should be about. I shall take the hon. Gentleman through that argument in my speech.
Mr. Raynsford: The right hon. Gentleman has promised to provide his formulation of a second question, and I look forward to seeing it. When I do, I shall give it my considered response. However, the House will note his inability to provide any formulation when challenged, other than to refer to the Government's proposed question, which presents the option of a mayor and an assembly. The Government believe that that integral package presents the best form of government for London. That is the proposal that we believe is right to put to the people of London.
Sir Norman Fowler: The hon. Gentleman is being misleading--or he is misleading himself. He has put forward two propositions: that London should have a directly elected mayor and a directly elected assembly. We contend that those two propositions should be voted on separately.
Mr. Raynsford: The right hon. Gentleman is clearly still not listening. The Government propose that the future government of London should take the form of a directly elected mayor working with a directly elected assembly, to provide the necessary mixture of leadership and accountability. As I have argued many times in the past few weeks, there is no case, in our view, for a mayor without an assembly. It would give too much power to an individual and would not create a proper framework of accountability. The right hon. Gentleman knows that only too well, because his party has now backed away from the position that it used to adopt--it supported a mayor but not an assembly. The Conservative party now says that it recognises that there has to be an assembly, and proposes one in the form of a group of 32 borough leaders.
I also put it to the right hon. Gentleman that it is monstrous hypocrisy to suggest that there is a case for two questions in the Bill when, in the most recent exercise in party democracy within the Conservative party, the proposition put to its membership was not: "Do you want the Leader of the Opposition?" and "Do you want his policy proposals?" It was: "Do you want the package all together?" When the Conservatives had the chance, they did not ask two questions; they asked one. It ill behoves them to challenge the Government now.
Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire):
The Minister is being courteous in giving way, but I fear that he simply does not understand the point. There are two questions. If the electorate of London were to say that there should not be a directly elected assembly, that would not preclude an indirectly appointed assembly to support the mayor. If the electorate of London were to take the
Mr. Raynsford:
The hon. Gentleman has just made my point. There would be no clarity. He could draw certain inferences from the outcome of two such votes, but they would be his inferences. They would not be the same inferences as those drawn by others. There would be no clarity or mandate. There would be confusion. That is the classic comment on the Conservative party.
Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood):
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Raynsford:
I shall give way once more. Then I must make some progress.
Mr. Wilkinson:
Am I right in drawing the inference that, by having only one question, the Government would prefer the possibility of no authority at all rather than that of a mayor or an elected assembly, which would be the possibility if there were two questions?
Mr. Raynsford:
As I have pointed out before, the Government are putting a package to the people of London. If the people of London do not want it, that is their choice and we shall respect that. We believe that it is right that they should have a say, but we also believe it right that we should put before them only propositions that are workable. It would be irresponsible to put forward options that were not workable, simply to please one particular faction that argued a particular case. Our proposal is serious: to give the people of London the ultimate choice. I should have thought that most people who believed in democracy would consider that right.
I shall now deal with the other reasons why we favour our formulation of the question. As I said, some permutations would be unworkable, and that would be utterly wrong. We have already put 61 questions to the people of London. Hundreds of individuals and organisations representing tens of thousands of Londoners have responded positively. As the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) will be aware, their considered responses run to thousands of pages. No doubt he and his researchers have read every one. Londoners have had their say on our draft proposals. It is now the task of the Government to consider those responses and to come forward with a comprehensive proposal, which we pledged to do in a White Paper.
Londoners will choose. On 7 May, they will be able to vote yes or no to a clear proposition worked up in the light of consultation responses. If they prefer another option, they can and should vote no. That is a clear choice, not a half-hearted muddle.
I have explained our position to the House. I have identified the clear tests that we applied when considering the question that should be asked. The referendum must be clear and straightforward. Complex multiple-choice questions are not an option. The referendum must be capable of providing a clear mandate on detailed proposals. It is no good casting the question in such a way that it is unclear what London wants or what Londoners will get. It must not offer unworkable solutions to the
people of London. That would be dishonest and irresponsible. We are not being dogmatic. We do not believe that there is an arguable case for more than one question. Opposition Members have had weeks to identify a clear second question, and they have failed to produce one.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
The Minister has argued from the Dispatch Box that an elected mayor alone would be unacceptable and, arguably, unworkable. Will he clarify the fact that, although there can be many arguments against a directly elected assembly, Ministers would not argue that a directly elected assembly would be unworkable--we have one here and we shall have one in Scotland and Wales? That must at least be a workable proposition.
Mr. Raynsford:
I readily accept that the argument against a directly elected assembly on its own is not that it would be unworkable, but that we do not think that it would give the leadership necessary to London now or in the foreseeable future. We believe that a mayor and assembly together would give the right mixture of leadership and accountability to provide the strategic guidance that London needs. That is why we oppose the directly elected assembly on its own. There are other formulations that we regard as unworkable, including a mayor on his or her own and some other options.
As I have already said, Opposition Members have had weeks to identify a clear second question and have failed to produce one. The suspicion must be that, in arguing for a second question when no single formulation has been provided, Opposition Members are simply playing games. They are not serious about offering Londoners a choice. It is all delay and bluster.
In time, no doubt, the people of London will judge the Opposition for the stance that they have taken. The people of London are deadly serious in their desire for new democratic government for their city. The people of London gave their verdict in the general election on 1 May on the Conservative party and its failure to respond to the expressed views of Londoners for a new strategic authority. I am delighted to see the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait) in her place, but she will be aware that, in the by-election last week, there was no ringing endorsement for her party from the people of Beckenham. There has been a swing to Labour since May, when Labour won 57 out of 74 seats in London.
We will not be put off by those who raise false fears or by those who pretend support but really want to offer only more of the same. We take heart from support offered by those who count--the people of London. The most recent and authoritative opinion poll, carried out by the Evening Standard and London Weekend Television, showed that 82 per cent. of Londoners supported the Government's plans. The same is true of the business community. Two weeks ago, the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry published findings suggesting that our proposals have the support of 86 per cent. of the capital's business leaders--an overwhelming endorsement of what we are proposing.
Over the past week and a half, we have had an extended debate on the detail and principle of the Bill. It all took place on the Floor of the House, and much of it was beside the point. We promised a referendum on our proposals
and that is what we shall deliver. We promised the referendum because we believe that how we are governed is not just a matter for politicians in this place, but something in which we all have a stake as citizens. The case of the Greater London authority is a matter of profound interest to the people of London.
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