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Mr. Simon Hughes: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments. He is also making perfectly measured points.
My understanding has always been that Middlesex, which was a huge county--the whole of the county was lost in Greater London--most easily divides into north Middlesex and west Middlesex. We can debate the boundary, but most people describe the county as one or the other. If we use Middlesex as a whole and then look at what we do with it, we might make some progress.
Mr. McNulty:
That is a fair point, as were the other points that the hon. Gentleman made. It is principally the responsibility of parties, rather than the Government, to reflect some equity balance in the diversity of London in terms of gender and ethnicity.
As a caution to the House, I shall repeat the point about the mayor and the assembly that I made on Second Reading. I do not want a mayor for the west end. I do not want a mayor who is essentially an elaborate figurehead and may as well work for the London tourist board. That brings me back to what I said about the relationship between the mayor, the assembly and the boroughs. Neither do I want--we have had to put up with this for so long in outer London in terms of London Labour politics--a mayor and assembly that will focus almost exclusively inwards, perhaps in what was the old Inner London education authority area, or the old Inner London area. I am not by any means making a subversive plea for borough assemblymen, but if the assembly is to be inclusive, it must be inclusive in terms of the strategic needs, desires and wants of inner and outer London. It must reflect the needs and concerns of east London, inner and outer, versus west London; and north versus south. It must celebrate at the strategic level the richness and specific concerns that we have at the different levels.
It is absolutely right to have only one question. If, in terms of relationships and the electoral system, we get something that reflects the diversity and inclusivity that I have spoken about, and if we define--this is more a role for the White Paper in March--the strategic functions of the assembly--if there are to be any, as I hope that there are--the House will have done London a really good turn and a real favour by giving us back democratic government.
It is entirely wrong for hon. Members, whether Labour or Conservative, to talk about this being an American model that will not work. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) went through the speech made on Second Reading by my hon. Friend the Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North. He referred selectively to aspects that he chose to mention and he did the same with me. I said that the mayor and the assembly would not be a recipe for conflict and that the mayor, vested with powers relating to the assembly, would not necessarily be a recipe for corruption. I said that, just because people say that, it does not make it true. All that my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East did in his speech was to say, simply, that my view was wrong, and that it was wrong because it was wrong, and because of the American model.
We are fundamentally not offering an American model. We are offering a brand new model for London. It is not enough to say, like the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Brake), that a mayor is alien to our culture. That is not a substantive enough analysis.
On Second Reading we were told, principally by the Liberal Democrats, that we were scared to put this proposal forward. They asked us for a bit of radicalism. I say now as I said then, this is the radical option. This is so radical and so new that I believe that it will excite the people of London into a higher turnout at the referendum.
Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire):
I apologise for the fact that I shall be unable to remain in the Chamber for the winding-up speeches from the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) as I have a meeting elsewhere. However, I shall take care to read those speeches tomorrow.
I shall not respond to the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty) in the terms in which he patronised my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles).
Mr. Pickles:
I have been patronised in much better terms.
Mr. Lansley:
Perhaps I should do so then. I shall just say that I thought that the objective on Third Reading, especially when there was a reasoned amendment, was to speak to that amendment and to respond to the debates that took place in Committee. I do not believe that it is the place to rehearse the arguments presented on Second Reading. I shall address myself to what was said in Committee and to the reasoned amendment.
The starting point from which I approached the amendments in Committee was that we were being asked to pursue a pre-legislative referendum. The aim of such a referendum, as the Minister has agreed on more than one occasion, is not to bind the House of Commons but to provide advice. Although the advice is not binding on the House, the Government see themselves as, in some sense, bound by it. There is a perverse element to a pre-legislative referendum that offers advice to the Government about how they should proceed with their policy while, at the same time, the Government--this is the essential point--are seeking not to provide the electorate of London with an opportunity to advise them. They are saying, "Here it is. Take it or leave it." In what will become the oft-repeated words of the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone), they are simply saying, "Let us marshall the terracotta army, muttering that it is in the manifesto, and march it all through." The electorate of London have to accept that, whether they like it or not.
What we have learned from the research of the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) is that that will be true for the Labour party in London, whether it likes it or not. The Labour party is emulating Henry Ford and saying, "You can have any car you like as long as it is black. You can have any form of democracy you want in London, as long as it is the democracy that the Labour party wants, not what the people of London are willing to vote for." That is the heart of the problem.
We are being asked to support an unamended Bill. There were ample opportunities in Committee for the Government to amend the Bill in order to serve the purpose for which a pre-legislative referendum should be designed--that is, to provide maximum opportunity for those being consulted to express their views on the choices available. They should be offered not the minimum number of options, but the maximum number of options and that comes down to two questions.
I was interested in the issue of responses to consultation. The hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck) stumbled happily into commending to us a 10 per cent. response rate where the Minister managed to achieve a magnificent 0.02 per cent. response rate--he is happy with that. It is one tenth of the response rate achieved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) when he was Secretary of State for the Environment and was consulting about London.
It is interesting that, at that time, as the Minister made clear in Committee, there were some people who wanted a strategic authority for London. There is no dispute about that because there have always been some people who want that. The Labour party was consistent in its desire to retain the Greater London council and then, after its abolition, to recreate it in some amended form.
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