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Ms Buck: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the issue of the assembly of the boroughs would be the third question?
Mr. Lansley: I am happy to deal with that. As the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey made clear, and as I attempted to explain to the Minister during an intervention, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) said, it is possible that, within the structure of two questions, people could say whether they want a directly elected mayor and whether they want a directly elected assembly. It is clear that, if people choose to have representatives from the boroughs, by extension, they are looking for an indirectly elected assembly.
Ministers are afraid that such a package would be rejected. They fear that, if they separated the two propositions by asking two questions, they would not get the answer that they seek. It seems to me that the desire of Ministers to have their own way transcends their desire to do what is best for London, and that is much to be regretted.
I shall mention one or two subjects that came up in Committee that have reflected ill on the Government's argument, or lack of argument, in support of the Bill. Ministers should reflect further on how they approach certain issues, particularly the representation of the boroughs in the assembly. The hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North referred to creative tension. The principal creative tension at the heart of the governance of London is the tension that will naturally arise in so large a city--in a sense, it is a number of cities--between the localities and the city as a whole. It is all very well for the hon. Lady to talk about creative tension between the assembly and the mayor, but that is an irrelevance. Creative tension in London will come from the mesh that will entwine the strategic overview of the mayor and the authority with the creativity expressed by localities. If we put the creative tension outside the authority, we shall ignore the essential question of how to proceed with the governance of London.
The hon. Member for Harrow, East said that additional powers have been devolved to, and will be retained by, the boroughs. It is illogical for him to talk about the benefits of subsidiarity, given these proposals. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South mentioned 10 powers, but there may be more. It did not take me more than a minute or two to discover that some of the powers of the boroughs will not necessarily be taken away. I shall give just one example, which will resonate with my hon. Friends and with people outside the House.
The Government have not said precisely what is proposed for planning and land use: that is the problem. One of the options in the consultation paper is that the authority would be responsible for a structure plan, and would have the power to ensure that local authorities reflected that strategic plan in their own planning documents. I am sure that the Minister will say that the power of development control has not shifted out of the hands of the London boroughs, but in fact the balance of power in relation to land use and development control in London as a whole will shift dramatically from the boroughs to a higher-level body that will be able to force boroughs to exercise their development control powers in a particular direction.
Mr. McNulty:
Rather than mind-read the consultation paper, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will take my tuppence worth. For the past three years, I have been a member of the London planning advisory committee, which issues strategic advice that boroughs have to take into account when developing their structure plans. There is no reason why, once that committee is subsumed by the Greater London authority, that system should not continue to prevail. I would not advocate a separate Greater London development plan with statutory force as a structure plan for London. I offer the hon. Gentleman that comment by way of information.
Mr. Lansley:
The analogy used in the consultation document is that of a county council, and the way in
The Minister was at pains to remind me that we are discussing a consultation document. That brings me back to one of the principal issues. The timing of the consultation process that will lead to decisions has gone wrong. We are told that the White Paper will be presented shortly before the referendum in the spring.
Mr. Raynsford:
Six weeks before.
Mr. Lansley:
A draft Bill will not be presented. At the same time, the boroughs will have to make decisions, and campaigns will have to be fought. It is undesirable for the question of the governance of London to be wrapped up in those political considerations. Labour Members have been at pains to say that there are differences between a strategic overview and borough considerations, yet they are perfectly happy that borough considerations and strategic questions about the longer-term governance of London should be pushed into one campaign. They do not want them to be separated for reasons of convenience, and because they want to pursue their manifesto commitments and to save £2 million to £3 million. Democracy has a higher price than that.
The proposals should be published and should be consulted on separately. We should know the views of the people of London, and not necessarily on a partisan basis. As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South said, there is a degree of cross-party agreement on some of the issues, such as the proposal for a directly elected mayor.
Mr. Raynsford:
The hon. Gentleman is moving ground.
Mr. Lansley:
The Minister is telling me that I am moving ground.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The Minister should not be telling the hon. Gentleman what to do now. He should wait until he winds up the debate.
Mr. Lansley:
The Minister should know, because I referred to this on Second Reading, that, before the election, I published a pamphlet showing that I was in favour of directly elected mayors. I have not changed my view on that subject.
Mr. Raynsford:
Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the manifesto of the Conservative party in London--I accept that he was not a London candidate--specifically opposed the Labour party's proposal for an elected mayor?
Mr. Lansley:
The Minister is right to remind me that I was not a London candidate. However, I read that document, and, as I recall, it was opposed to the Labour party's proposals for an elected mayor and an authority. The Minister is at pains to say that this is an integrated package. At that time, it was reasonable for us to place emphasis on the question whether the Labour party wanted to recreate an authority, such as the Greater
The debate in Committee showed the undesirability of the wholesale discretion that the Bill gives the Secretary of State to determine the electoral format for the assembly. The Minister uses the term "citywide", because it is inconvenient for him to recognise the reality. This authority may be the first of a number of regional authorities. Should it be established, it will no doubt be represented as a precedent for regional government. Constitutionally, it is highly undesirable for the electoral system for a regional assembly to be constructed on the basis of such a precedent, because it enables the Local Government Commission to operate under the direction and at the discretion of Ministers, without reference to the House.
Mr. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Canning Town):
I want first to address the misrepresentation of the position of the Greater London Labour party by Conservative Members. As has been reported, we have had within the Greater London Labour party a full debate on the Green Paper and Labour's proposals for an elected mayor and an elected assembly. We have more than 65,000 party members in Greater London, nine of the 10 Members of the European Parliament, 57 of the 74 Members of Parliament and the majority of London boroughs, so it would be a huge surprise if there was not a variety of views. Conservative Members have, however, focused on a few individuals who have challenged the proposals in the Green Paper.
The consultative conference that I chaired on 12 October has been mentioned frequently by Conservative Members. I am not sure whether I am expected to be flattered or offended by the remark, often quoted by Conservative Members, that I manipulated the conference. I am happy to claim that I chaired the conference effectively--certainly to the satisfaction of the vast majority of those who attended. There were more than 300 delegates, including many Labour Members. The results of that consultation--
Mr. Ottaway:
I should hate the House to be misled and to be left with the impression that Conservative Members are saying that the hon. Gentleman manipulated the meeting. It was a member of the Greater London Labour party executive who used the word "manipulated".
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