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8.15 pm
The disparities show the need for a fundamental examination of European Union financing, and they provide the basis for an argument that greater resources should applied to dealing with the types of problem mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, and that fewer resources should be expended on the wasteful common agricultural policy. I hope that the Government will vigorously implement their manifesto commitment--I am sure they will--to press within the European Union for rebalancing resources, so that we can spend far less on subsidising farmers and far more on helping regions on the periphery of the European Union and on areas with very high unemployment.
Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings):
Does the hon. Gentleman therefore think that it is feasible to enlarge the Union but not to allow all members equal status in the CAP? Is he saying that the CAP is inappropriate for new members? If he is not saying that it is inappropriate, and that new members should be included in the CAP, the problems that he has described will be exacerbated.
Mr. Gapes:
I am saying that, as it is today, the CAP is inappropriate for existing members, and that, with enlargement, it would be inappropriate to try to keep the CAP as it is. One of the best arguments for enlargement is that EU membership for Poland and Hungary will make it impossible to continue the current common agricultural policy.
Mr. Hayes:
The hon. Gentleman mentioned Hungary, which has 1.1 million small farmers. One reason why Hungary wants to enter the European Union is that it appreciates the benefits of a common agricultural policy, be it in its current form or in a form envisaged under Agenda 2000. The problems that he described will be exacerbated by admission of some eastern and central European countries that have far less efficient farming than exists in the main stream--what he called the "core"--of Europe. He offers no solutions. Is he suggesting a two-tier Europe? What is he suggesting?
Mr. Gapes:
I always thought that the Conservative party was in favour of enlargement, but perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) was right. We are hearing speeches from the new isolationist wing of the Conservative party, which does not seem to be in favour of European Union enlargement. Anyone who has been to Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic--as I have--and talked to people there will know very well that people in those countries realise that, although they may not like it, their current agricultural system cannot possibly cope with European Union membership.
In Poland, for several years, there has been a significant economic shift, with fewer people working the land. Change is already happening. Many far-sighted people in those countries are using the prospect of European Union membership as an argument, before membership, to accelerate that economic shift, and they will use it after joining to reduce their dependence on an inefficient production system.
I hope that the Bill will receive full-hearted support from hon. Members on both sides of the House who believe in British membership of the European Union, and who realise that the Amsterdam treaty is a modest but important contribution to assisting the people of the United Kingdom, those in the rest of the European Union and those who wish to join the European Union in the future.
Mr. Gill:
I am tempted to follow the excellent speech of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands), who told the House what the consequences of fixed exchange rates would be on unemployment. It is important that there is a full, frank and honest debate about the consequences for United Kingdom employment prospects if we complete fixed exchange rates with the other countries of the European Union. History demonstrates--it is a matter not of economic theory but of fact--that, if the United Kingdom joins fixed exchange rates, unemployment automatically goes up.
The hon. Gentleman was honest enough to explain to the Committee that the only way to mitigate the effects of fixed exchange rates was by a massive transfer of funds from the centre to the regions. For the benefit of the hon. Member for Ilford, South, let me say that we must not assume that Great Britain will in future necessarily be regarded as a poor region that will attract the funds which would be necessary, if there were fixed exchange rates, to create prosperity or avoid unemployment in our regions.
On that same point, it is inconceivable that the constituents of those hon. Members who have spoken in favour of the treaty are going to resolve the matter of their own unemployment by moving to other parts of the Community. It is all very well to talk like that with reference to the United States of America where the same language is spoken in New York, Florida and California, but the same does not apply in Europe. Someone who loses his job in south Wales is not going to be in the same happy position as his American counterpart, and will not be able to find himself a job in Prussia, Italy or Portugal.
Mr. Gill:
I gladly give way to the hon. Gentleman; I look forward to him coming up with some hard arguments and facts to support his ridiculous contentions. To judge from what he was saying, I though that he was reading from his four-year-old's fairy tale book.
Mr. Gapes:
My daughter reads books for much older children than that. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that, because this Government's policies will mean that we shall cease to have regions whose deprivation and unemployment is such that they attract special assistance from the European Union, we should therefore oppose enlargement of the European Union by smaller countries of central and eastern Europe? Is he now joining the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) in opposing enlargement?
Mr. Gill:
The hon. Gentleman knows full well that that is not what I was saying. I shall now return to the point that I was making, which involved the effect of fixed exchange rates on unemployment. I conclude my comments on that issue by saying that it amazes me that
It will not be the fat cats or the Eurocrats who find themselves without a job but Labour Members' constituents, and my constituents. I could not vote for fixed exchange rates because I know what the consequences would be for my constituents. The same was true of our membership of the exchange rate mechanism--thousands of my constituents lost their jobs, many of them lost their homes, and many lost their businesses.
Mr. Gill:
I have to give way to my hon. Friend.
Mr. Jenkin:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for returning the favour. Does despair, like me, when confronted with arguments to the effect that we can somehow return to a Bretton Woods system which depended on one major currency instead of several as we have now, and which existed when there were capital controls on all the major economies, so that there were no international capital flows such as we have now? Does he not despair when people simply ignore the fact that even a big currency like the yen can crash and be subject to speculation? Labour Members seem incapable of learning that even the euro, stretching across an entire continent, could be speculated against, be unstable and lead to economic dislocation within that area.
Mr. Gill:
I follow my hon. Friend's line of argument. As he knows, Bretton Woods was blown away by the oil crisis, just as every other system of fixed exchange rates has been blown away by one factor or another.
What I am trying to tell the Committee, particularly those Labour Members who do not want to hear it, is that the inevitable consequence of pursuing fixed exchange rates will be unemployment for their constituents. Sadly, there will be unemployment for my constituents, too. I do not believe in this policy, which is why I am resisting it. I do so not because of any brief that I have picked up from central office or from anyone else's office or from any lobby group--this is what Christopher Gill feels so strongly in his heart, and what is demonstrated by the economic history of this century.
Mr. Casale:
I share the hon. Gentleman's concern for employment and for a European Union that offers clear benefits to the British people. However, many of the amendments, which I assume he is supporting, would prevent Britain from ratifying the Amsterdam treaty. Is he not aware that failure to ratify the treaty, which would then disconnect Britain from Europe, would create a level of unemployment of which even he, in his current line of argument, has not dreamed?
Mr. Gill:
The hon. Gentleman draws attention to what he believes to be the obvious benefits of being in Europe. If he catches your eye, Mr. Lord, perhaps he will tell the Committee what those tangible benefits are; let him quantify them. In the meantime, I return to the argument that I was developing.
The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney also said that so many features of the European Union are the absolute opposite of what they profess to be. Paragraph 4 of article 1 of the treaty states:
We are not talking about democracy today. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney described the European Union as corporatist, but I have another word for it--collectivist. How else can one describe, for example, the common fisheries policy, whereby it is not this Parliament but the European Commission that tells our fisherman what he should catch--by species and size--where he should catch it and in what quantity? That is not democracy but collectivism.
It amazes me that even some Conservative Members who have opposed Communism all their lives have apparently found it in themselves to support these policies which are nothing if not collectivist. To this day--[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Ilford, South laughs, but is he laughing for the people of North Korea who are starving because that country continues to promote and adhere to collectivist polices?
Paragraph 2 of article 1 of the treaty declares that member states shall be determined
In fishing harbours in the British isles, I have seen beautiful, plump fresh flat white fish covered in red paint because they did not come up to the minimum landing size prescribed, not by anyone in this Parliament but by the European Commission. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) nodding in agreement, because he has been to those harbours with me and can verify what I have said.
"This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union"--
I shall leave out at this stage any consideration of whether that is what the people of this country want--
"among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible as the citizen."
The implication is that the European Union is to be a democratic organisation or a democratic state--that is the implication of saying that discussions and decisions are to be open and that everything will be brought as close to the people as possible. However, the opposite is the case. As the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney said, so much turns out to be the opposite of what we were told.
"to promote economic and social progress for their peoples, taking into account the principle of sustained development".
To continue my analogy with the fishing industry, it is interesting to consider sustainable development. There we have a natural resource, which will go on regenerating itself if we handle it properly. Under the collectivist common fisheries policy, hundreds and thousands of tonnes of perfectly saleable fresh fish are being thrown back dead into the sea. When some of the fish reaches the shore, they are condemned.
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