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9 pm
Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside): My concern is that the amendments, together with the comments made this evening, would undermine the social and economic well-being of significant numbers of citizens of this country, in opposition to paragraph 2 of article 1 of the treaty. If the amendments were passed, the treaty could not be ratified, and the position of this country in Europe would be undermined at a critical time for this country as a whole and for vulnerable regions of this country.
One of the main ways in which the European Union has been of great benefit to significant numbers of our citizens has been through the operation of its structural and community policies. Enlargement of the community is being considered, and at the same time renegotiation is taking place on the eligibility of major areas of our country for access to vital European funds--conventional structural funds from the European regional development fund, and the European social fund and community funding.
Mr. Swayne:
Is the hon. Lady aware that those funds come from the British taxpayer--that we are net contributors--and that we are quite capable of making those allocations? Will she address the issue of how those disadvantaged regions will fare when they are subjected to an unfavourable interest rate regime, which it might well be beyond the limits of any structural fund to put right?
Mrs. Ellman:
I reject the hon. Gentleman's central contention, and I shall specifically answer his points about eligible regions.
My experience of eligible regions in this country is that the sensitive application of European funding has produced greater business investment, enabled essential skills training to take place and helped to redevelop major areas of our country. Specifically, I have seen representations to the European Commission and the European Parliament result in the setting up of the vital
Konver fund, which has directly benefited areas of this country where the local economy was undermined by the running down of defence industries under the previous Government.
I have seen European funds working with the private sector in the objective 1 area of Merseyside, where the innovative special investment fund has used European funding with private sector money to support small and medium enterprises in a way not previously done. I have seen, in the north-west region as a whole, the setting up of a network of technology centres that work with the private sector, universities and the voluntary sector to ensure that new technological knowledge is applied in a variety of business concerns and voluntary organisations.
Mr. Bercow:
I note what hon. Lady says, but, if I may say so, she has rather missed the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne). Is she arguing, simply because she supports the operation of structural funds, that that justifies pursuing a deflationary monetary policy in Europe to increase those funds? Will she tell the Committee how, in any sense, the greater taxation that bigger cohesion funds would entail is consistent with the article 1 commitment to the promotion of
Mrs. Ellman:
The hon. Gentleman does not seem to understand the gist of what I am saying. I again state that I totally reject one of the Conservative Members' major contentions that our continuing membership of the European Union and our support of the treaty would jeopardise our economy in general. On the contrary, I believe that, were we not to ratify the treaty and to withdraw from the European Union, as many Conservative Members seem to want to do, that would be tragic for our economy.
I am not, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, arguing at this point for increased structural funds for specific areas; I am saying that we are at a most critical point, when the very continuation of the eligibility of critical areas such as Merseyside and much of the north-west of England is at stake. Were we unable to proceed with the strong leadership that we now have from the new Government, and were we not to have the good relations that we now enjoy with Europe, those areas identified as in need, where focused funds working with the private sector are making a great difference, might have their funds withdrawn. I am talking about the necessity of the continued eligibility of those areas rather than the necessity of an increase in absolute funding, although that would be most welcome.
Mr. Letwin:
I have followed the hon. Lady's argument. I do not agree with her view on funding, but let us assume that she is correct. Has she understood the force of the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne)? Does she agree that, given that we are a net contributor, the funding that she is talking about could just as well come
Mrs. Ellman:
The hon. Gentleman's comments strengthen the view that I have acquired throughout the debate, which is that most Conservative Members--certainly those here tonight--wish to withdraw from the European Union and not ratify the Amsterdam treaty.
Mrs. Ellman:
I shall give way in a moment. It appears that, the more that Conservative Members seek to intervene, the more they confirm their basic opposition to this country's continued membership of the European Union.
Mr. Paterson:
Let me put my question in incredibly simple language. In order to receive £1 back in European funds, the British taxpayer puts in £1.70. Our submission is that it would be more sensible if the decisions were made by the British Government and the money were not raked off on the way.
Mrs. Ellman:
Once again, the hon. Gentleman seems to be advocating withdrawal from Europe. That may be the logical conclusion of the policy that has been officially adopted by Conservative Members and their leader, which is that this country should state now that it has no intention of joining EMU in any circumstances for at least 10 years. Tonight, Conservative Members seem to be confirming that the logical conclusion of such a policy statement--given for 10 years ahead, irrespective of what is to the benefit of this country--is that they are seeking withdrawal from the European Union. If so, perhaps we can have a debate on that subject on another occasion. I shall be pleased to participate.
Mr. Flight:
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Ellman:
I shall give way for the last time.
Mr. Flight:
The treaty and the single currency will inevitably require major changes to the subsidisation arrangements in the European Union--I hope to expand on this point later--and the part of the world that the hon. Lady represents is likely to do a lot worse in the future than it is doing today. There will be economic regions, particularly in the southern parts of the European Union, that will have the main call on that which is available for cross-subsidisation. I suggest that focusing on the benefits to her area is not an argument in favour of what is now going on in Europe.
Mrs. Ellman:
The hon. Gentleman confirms the major argument that I am seeking to make: we are at a critical point because the enlargement of the European Union is taking place. It is critical that this country should maintain its relationship with the European Union and decision makers throughout Europe to ensure that our vulnerable regions get the best possible deal from Europe. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reinforcing my argument.
It was ironic to listen to Conservative Members object to sections of the treaty on the ground that it would lead to further centralisation. I found it ironic, because my practical experience of dealing with Europe to bring vital investment, training and funding to Lancashire specifically and the north-west of England in general revealed to me that those benefits were gained because of the flexibility of the European Commission.
Together with colleagues from the private sector and fellow local authority representatives, I took part in delegations to the European Union and had meetings with commissioners and their staff. By arguing the detailed case relating to the economy of our areas, we were able to be decisive in persuading the European Union to define its boundaries for structural funds to reflect economic and social need. We also succeeded in persuading it to set up new funds, such as the Konver fund, to meet the specific needs of our individual areas.
According to my experience, which is shared by many others, the European Union, far from being a centralised monolith, is flexible.
Mrs. Ellman:
I shall not give way again.
If those who are seeking support on behalf of our citizens work out their detailed case, take the trouble to present it clearly and lobby effectively, that delivers valuable results. It did so for the people I represented in the past, and I hope that I will be able to deliver the same results for the people I now represent in Riverside and on Merseyside as part of the north-west.
"the Fundamental Social Rights of Workers"?
According to the hon. Lady's ethos, is it a fundamental social right of workers to be much more heavily taxed in future than they have been in the past?
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