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Dr. Palmer: One of the most interesting aspects of the debate, and of the way in which the amendment was introduced, was the ballet between the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash), who is on his way out of the Chamber, and the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard). The hon. Gentleman claimed that he was speaking for the whole of the Conservative party. Very wisely, the right hon. and learned Gentleman made no such claim. Their approaches to the amendment complemented each other.
It is striking that, when the right hon. and learned Gentleman introduced what is essentially a wrecking amendment that would prevent Britain from accessing the treaty of Amsterdam, he gave as his reasons points of tiny detail. He spent a considerable time dealing with article K.12, which states:
Not satisfied with that, the hon. Member for Stone suggested that the passage could mean that the European Court of Justice could decide whether the European Union could commit military forces, for instance in Bosnia. The right hon. and learned Gentleman did not dissent, although the entire article K relates only to police and internal security matters.
The Conservative attack on the treaty of Amsterdam again and again failed to focus on the main issues, and again and again returned to points of detail. We heard, for instance, the hon. Member for Stone arguing that the European Court of Justice should be allowed to give dissenting opinions.
Mr. Hayes:
I regret that I have interrupted the hon. Gentleman's charismatic performance. Am I right in thinking that I heard him say that we should be dealing with the broad aims of the treaty rather than the detail? Surely the detail is what we should be examining. If we do not consider the details of treaties, what are we here for?
Dr. Palmer:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his interesting intervention. The problem is that the Conservative Opposition focus on minor aspects of the treaty, which, when examined more closely, disappear into thin air. They do not address themselves to the central details.
Should dissenting opinions be allowed in the European Court of Justice? Apparently it is an extremely important matter, but such opinions would change nothing in the decisions of the court. The issue was sufficient, apparently, to detain Conservative Members for some time. Is it Conservative policy that dissenting opinions should be allowed? The right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe described it as an interesting
point which had been forcefully expressed, but he did not express his opinion one way or the other. I do not know whether he wishes to do so now--obviously not.
Another dog that has not barked is the question of a referendum. There was a time when the Conservative party favoured a referendum on the treaty; is that still its position? We should be grateful to know. Some Conservative Members nod their heads and others are shaking their heads. We see also the absolutely immobile head of the shadow Foreign Secretary.
Hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber have talked about a single currency. They drew attention especially to the impact on regions. It should not have escaped their attention that we have a single currency in the United Kingdom, where there are considerable differences in economic development. I do not know whether hon. Members who are opposed on principle to a single currency for the next 10 or 15 years, or for whatever number of years, would favour breaking up the single currency in Britain so that we might have one currency for each region, allowing for devaluation for Merseyside and Scotland, for example. Or do they accept a single currency in Britain but for some mysterious reason do not accept it in Europe?
Mr. Blunt:
The hon. Gentleman should be aware that within the United Kingdom, which he is correct to say is a single currency zone, there are enormous transfers within the tax and benefit systems to ameliorate the consequences of a single currency. The system ensures that, for example, people I represent in Surrey probably pay a significant amount of tax and receive fewer benefits than the people in Liverpool or Scotland. That is the sort of system that will have to be introduced to support a single currency within the European Union. That requires democratic authority and federal government to make things work.
When the hon. Gentleman responds to my intervention, will he make it clear that he accepts that a single currency move is the greatest step towards a united states of Europe? As I have said, it will not operate without democratic authority at a federal European level.
Dr. Palmer:
I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman had time only to ask a question rather than to make a speech.
A single currency is coming whether we wish for it or not, and the question is whether Britain should be part of it.
Mr. Blunt:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr. Palmer:
I will carry on for the moment. I will return to the hon. Gentleman's point.
The hon. Member for Stone spoke of the glorious past, when we had an empire and a single currency throughout the world up to a point, but he used that argument to oppose the development of a single currency in Europe. We have the choice of isolation in the European Union, withdrawal from the EU or working with our partners in the EU and within the single currency. That is the reason why Britain under a Labour Government has accepted that there is no constitutional bar to working together within a European single currency.
If there were a constitutional bar, there would be only two alternatives--isolation, as practised by the last Conservative Government, or withdrawal. We know that
there are hon. Members who favour withdrawal and hon. Members who favour isolation, but Conservative Front- Bench spokesmen will not say which they favour.
Mr. Bercow:
To coin a phrase, I fear that the hon. Gentleman is suffering from a refreshing outburst of frankness and candour. I have followed the logic of the argument closely. The thrust of the argument seems to be that the single currency is inevitable anyway, so we have to sign up to it. May I therefore invite him to tell the Committee whether he believes that, if the Community goes forward with a single currency and adopts a common direct taxation system as its accompaniment, we have no choice but to accept that as well?
Dr. Palmer:
We have two choices: influencing the European Union's development and how the currency is implemented, or isolation, which the hon. Gentleman's party developed, signally failing to influence the development of the currency.
Mr. Blunt:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr. Palmer:
I am aware that other Members wish to speak, so I am going to finish. I am sorry, but I will not give way again.
We need the European Union because it is the only body in Europe which is large enough to enable to us to grapple with the economic, environmental and trade challenges that we face. We cannot face them effectively on our own. The EU needs us because, without us, it will not be as effective as it can be. It wants us to take part and we want to work with it, in contrast with the previous Government. The treaty of Amsterdam is an expression of that common will to work together. It makes sense, and only the diminishing ranks of the Opposition fail to realise it.
Mr. Bercow
: I am stunned by the contribution of the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer). He has done the Committee a signal service: he has broken ranks with hon. Members who spoke before him. Not for him the language of national independence, but support for the practice of federalism. From him, it is crystal clear what we are getting: support not only for the practice, but for the principles, of federalism.
The hon. Gentleman did not disavow or eschew that, or seek to deny the thrust of the criticisms of his position. Instead, he seemed to accept what Conservative Members have consistently argued: the logical corollary of entry to economic and monetary union is the adoption of a common direct taxation system. To all intents and purposes, it is clear that we would get a federal centralised Europe in which scope for individual decision making would no longer exist.
Mr. Bercow:
I happily give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to correct that interpretation of his position.
Dr. Palmer:
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. In view of the lack of time, let me simply tell him
Mr. Bercow:
I thank the hon. Gentleman for clarifying his position, but, sadly, whatever he may think, what he says does not in any way detract from what I have just said about his position. The reason is simple. The hon. Gentleman believes that, if the rest of the European Union chooses to proceed with a single currency, we can argue about the detail, the way in which the currency will be developed and how it will be implemented, but we have no realistic alternative to participating in it.
"If a member of the Council declares that, for important and stated reasons of national policy, it intends to oppose the granting of an authorisation by qualified majority, a vote shall not be taken."
The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that the European Court of Justice might be able to state that those reasons were not important. Anyone who examines that sentence cannot seriously maintain that it sustains that interpretation.
9.30 pm
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