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11.10 am
Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater): I remember when mink came to a neighbouring valley. I saw the disappearance of kingfishers, dippers and water rats. Some of them have returned because the mink have been hunted and, fortunately, they have gone. The area became the silent valley and I understand why the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mrs. Golding) spoke so movingly on the subject.
I am a veteran of debates such as this and I have always recognised that the topic arouses great emotions in the House and in our constituencies. In my constituency, there are two packs of stag hounds and five packs of fox hounds. The life of many people in the more remote rural parts is tied to the community of hunting, whether it is of deer or foxes. There are strong feelings. I respect the views of those who support hunting but I appreciate that
many people in the countryside are opposed to it, and I also respect their views. I hope that all hon. Members recognise that those who support hunting, and those who oppose, are not all nasty, extremist and vicious. Many decent people believe that their cause is right and that they are entitled to pursue it.
The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster) is a new Member and presenting such a Bill is a tough task. Whether he was wise to introduce such a contentious measure is his decision and he is entitled to make it. He was profoundly wrong when he said that he had never met anybody who thinks that fishing or shooting should also be banned. He does not think that his Bill is the thin end of the wedge. Those of us who have lived with some of these groups for some time know that many people who want to ban fishing and shooting are involved in backing campaigns with large sums of money. By his Bill, the hon. Gentleman is saying to them, "If your campaign can get the backing of the majority of people in this country, somebody can present a Bill to ban those activities." I do not suggest that the hon. Gentleman would vote for that, but he is endorsing that principle because banning fox hunting and stag hunting may encourage others to mount campaigns to ban the others.
In a most effective speech, my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) said that to despise somebody's opinions is one thing, but to seek to suppress them is another. That would not be the liberty and tolerance that we seek to maintain. The Bill opens the door to yet more such measures. I could speak about the effect on the economy, although the number of jobs involved is not huge. The important matter is where those jobs are located. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mrs. Ballard), whose constituency is next to mine and who shares Exmoor with me, knows that, in such an area, 20, 40 or 50 jobs are important. We are desperate for more opportunities for the young in rural economies.
Mrs. Ballard:
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. King:
The 10-minute limit on speeches makes interventions impossible. I am sorry about that.
I do not wish to say any more about the economy, although it is a real issue, or about the issues of principle which others may discuss. I do not want further to discuss the Bill, which I regard as unworkable and unacceptable. I want to speak about the conservation of deer. I speak with a sad heart about the pictures on the front page of The Independent. The number of stags on the Quantocks have possibly been halved in the past few weeks. I deplore that and appeal to farmers and to the National Trust to work together.
Hon. Members may have noticed but may not understand why the Forestry Commission has today just renewed the licence that will enable the Quantock stag hounds to hunt again over its land. The commission has done that because it realises that the warnings about the problems for conservation are real. I speak not just for myself but with the backing of the opinion of the Exmoor National Park Committee, whose members are from all parties and are mainly non-hunting people as far as I can see. I also speak for the Exmoor Society, which is committed to the conservation and preservation of the ecology and wildlife of Exmoor, for the Quantock Deer Management Committee, and for the Exmoor Deer Forum, which was set up by the National Trust and has representatives on it of other conservation bodies.
Following the publication of the Bateson report, all those bodies said that we must not ban hunting before deciding on alternative deer management to put in its place. I should like to speak about the Bateson report before I explain why I am so frightened by the current situation. The hon. Member for Worcester recognised that the Bateson report is important. It is not the end of the matter, and it is unfortunate that the way in which it was handled by the National Trust allowed no debate in advance of the trust's decision. The report is extremely complicated and Professor Bateson himself said that he was surprised by some of the findings.
Mr. Dennis Turner (Wolverhampton, South-East):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. King:
No. In view of the time limit, I cannot give way.
Others were even more surprised by those findings. One of the difficulties was that, understandably, all the Bateson report samples were taken from deer that had been killed. One understands why it was not possible to take samples from deer that had been hunted for some time and had escaped. The implication of Professor Bateson's report is that deer are so seriously damaged in every way during a hunt that their lives are seriously impaired. I asked whether any study had been carried out into carted deer in Ireland. I received a letter from a veterinary surgeon who has an interest in carted deer there. His letter states:
The issue comes down to a balance of suffering. I try to avoid the more emotive descriptions in debates such as this, but the most tragic pictures are those of deer which have been shot in the face. Such animals cannot eat or drink, and are infested with maggots. When they are known to be alive, the only way to dispatch them is for the hunt to find them and put them out of their misery.
Farmers on Exmoor feed the deer. The deer live on the hill and come down to the farms to feed. The hunt moves them on, thus preventing them from concentrating in specific areas. Now in some areas there is no hunt to move them on. A deer can eat as much as three sheep can and a farmer can have as many as 100 deer on his farm. When faced with the income problems that farmers face, they will take the matter into their own hands, as they are entitled to do. Unfortunately, that has happened on Exmoor.
The House is not guilty yet of condemning the Exmoor herd. If hunting is banned, I believe that the warnings that have been given by all the conservation bodies will become a reality and that we may face extinction of the herd. Victor Bonham-Carter said:
Dan Norris (Wansdyke):
Thank you for calling me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to make my maiden speech on an issue about which I feel strongly and passionately. In advance, I should also like especially to thank Opposition Members for listening to me, under the convention, because I know that they, too, hold strong views on the matter which do not necessarily accord with my own.
I should first like to pay tribute to my predecessor, Jack Aspinwall. Although I had great political differences with him, he worked hard for the constituency and was a good constituency Member of Parliament. Unfortunately, he was best remembered by many members of the public for injuring his back in a charity parachute jump, as some hon. Members may recall. Also, two years ago, he was terribly ill and close to death. I am sure that all hon. Members will support me in giving him their best wishes for a happy and healthy retirement. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] I know that Mr. Aspinwall would want to have been known as a good constituency Member of Parliament and as one who tried his very best. Without reservation, I can say that he was and he did.
People often ask why my constituency is called Wansdyke, thinking that it is a northern constituency with chimney stacks, smoke, satanic mills and all sorts of things. It is in the heart of southern England--in the south-west, near Bristol. Its northern edge includes parts of Bristol, moving across to Bath and down to the old Somerset coalfields. In no sense, therefore, is it northern.
One of the main towns in my constituency is Keynsham, which is best known for its large chocolate factory, which makes many well-known brands, such as Turkish Delight, Double Decker and other household names. The next largest towns are Midsomer Norton and Radstock, in the south of my constituency, in the old Somerset coalfields. The area has suffered considerably since many of those coalfields closed in the 1960s and 1970s.
One very bad legacy of the previous Conservative Administration was the poor state of repair of school buildings, especially in the southern part of my constituency. I am very grateful, and pleased to be able to say, that the new Labour Government have already made a difference. Already, more than £1 million of new
deal money to improve those school buildings has been injected into my constituency, lifting the hearts not only of the teaching profession, parents and pupils but of all my constituents.
In Wansdyke, 50 per cent. of people live in rural areas and 50 per cent. live in urban or town areas. It is therefore a very good barometer for this debate. Moreover, the letters that I have received well reflect the views, whether urban or rural, across the constituency. Back in 1991, and again last year, I asked people to write to me about their views on hunting animals with hounds. In total, I received more than 1,000 letters. Since the general election, I have received almost 800 letters. Of those letters, 80 per cent. expressed support for the Bill. It is even more interesting that the most overwhelmingly supportive letters have come from rural areas. That is surprising, but it is a significant fact.
The argument about town versus country certainlydoes not apply in north-east Somerset and south Gloucestershire, which I represent. Such an argument is completely inaccurate, and raising it was an own goal by the pro-hunt lobby, because it was flawed and did not truly reflect the nature of the countryside or of the town. The pro-hunt lobby made a big error by using that argument. Although all the objective evidence supports the passage of the Bill, I accept that the passions of those on both sides of the argument are sincere--a fact that is not always acknowledged.
"some of the statements in the Bateson report are at variance with my professional experience . . . Many of the deer that are hunted in Ireland make apparently an uneventful recovery from the experience".
What is required from Professor Bateson is a serious study of those issues. Data were not published and it is far from clear that there is a unanimous view by scientists. These matters must be seriously examined.
"The wild red deer of Exmoor will indeed be shot and trapped to extinction should hunting be prohibited."
Richard Prior, the well-known naturalist, said:
"If the day dawns when hunting is prevented for any reason, the deer will start a slide to extinction from which all the statutes of the House of Commons will not save them."
If any hon. Member has an alternative deer management system, I should like to hear it. The House cannot now say that it did not know or understand the consequences of passing such a Bill. The survival of the last great truly wild red deer herd in England--the only one that we have left--is now at risk. Recognising the consequences of passing the Bill may not suit the prejudices of Labour Members, but they have now been told and warned by everyone who is concerned about conservation on Exmoor.
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