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Miss Widdecombe: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Howarth: I will give way, for the last time, to the right hon. Lady.
Miss Widdecombe: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman that I was not in the Chamber for the beginning of his speech; perhaps he covered my point and I missed it. Will he tell me, please, whether the Government will provide parliamentary time in this Parliament for the measures?
Mr. Howarth: The right hon. Lady is entitled to ask that question, as I have not yet answered it, although I was about to do so.
I should like to deal with the matter of the Bill's future progress if, as seems likely, it receives a Second Reading. I will take the argument to its conclusion in the manner that I think is most appropriate.
As I said, the Government gave a manifesto commitment that we would allow a free vote on the issue. Today is that occasion, and the opportunity for us to realise our manifesto commitment. My right hon. and hon. Friends will have a free vote on the Bill. The right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire(Sir B. Mawhinney) made it clear that Conservative Members would have a free vote. I welcome that.
If, as I suspect, the Bill receives a Second Reading, it will have a Committee stage, which is the normal procedure for private Members' Bills. There is no time limit on that Committee stage. I do not invite hon. Members to use the Committee stage to hold up every other private Member's Bill in the queue, but it is the stage at which the Bill--as the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire said--can be examined in detail and at which any difficulties can be ironed out. Subsequently, on a designated date, the Bill will have a Report stage and a Third Reading in the House. The Government agree that that is quite right.
If those procedures are followed, and if those Conservative Members who have expressed concern about the Bill continue to do so but in a way that does not delay the Bill's progress in Committee or on Report--in other words, if they do not deliberately use delaying tactics--there is no reason why the Bill should not complete all its stages in this place. [Hon. Members: "So the answer is no."] I am glad that Conservative Members have reacted in that way. Why do they suddenly lead us to believe that we will need more than the designated time for the Bill to complete all its stages? Is it their intention to delay it? I see several Conservative Members nodding in agreement.
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield):
When a Bill as bad and pernicious as this comes before the House, I will use every possible device to delay it, as it is discriminatory and wholly wrong.
Mr. Howarth:
We are now at the heart of the matter. The hon. Gentleman has made it clear that, no matter how much time the Bill had, he and his colleagues would not support it in any circumstances but would use the procedures of the House--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) should not be shouting; she has made her case.
Mr. Howarth:
I give way to the right hon. Lady for the last time.
Miss Widdecombe:
My question is terribly simple: if the Bill runs into difficulty, just as Bills that I have introduced have been obstructed by Labour Members in the past, will the Government give it Government time?
Mr. Howarth:
That is a hypothetical question, but I will deal with it by answering the point made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). The hon. Gentleman made it clear that, however much time the Bill has, Conservative Members will try to thwart it. Indeed, when I suggested that earlier, several Conservative Members nodded in agreement. They will use every delaying tactic available to them to stop the Bill passing all its stages in this House and moving to another place.
The same condition--[Interruption.]
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann)
rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. We have had good order all day, so let us keep it that way.
Mr. Trimble:
My point relates not to the subject matter of the Bill but to the remarkable doctrine that the Minister seemed to enunciate. He seemed to be saying that, if a Bill is given a Second Reading, it must become law, irrespective of what the House decides. Surely that is not right.
Mr. Howarth:
I gave way to the hon. Gentleman because I thought that he might have a sensible point to make, but he did not. I was not saying that at all. My point was that, if Conservative Members want to thwart the legitimate will of the House by using parliamentary delaying tactics to stop the later stages of the Bill, and several Conservative Members suggested that that was the case, they will have to answer not just to their own constituents but to the British public. The public do not want Conservative Members using parliamentary tactics to delay legislation that is popular and which will, I think, shortly be given a Second Reading. That is an entirely different principle from what the hon. Gentleman suggested.
Let us suppose that the House passes the Bill through all its stages, as I suspect that it will. What will happen when the Bill goes to another place? There are 324 Conservative hereditary peers. Many of them have said that they will use another place to defeat the Bill by whatever means are available to them. Nothing could more eloquently support our argument that hereditary peers should not have those powers. If the Lords want to take on the House of Commons, let them do so. They will find that the public believe what we believe--that hereditary peers should not have that right.
I hope that the Bill will be given a Second Reading today.
Mr. McNamara:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Howarth:
I cannot give way to my hon. Friend. I am about to conclude.
I hope that the Bill receives a Second Reading. It will have my support. I hope that the House will deal with it fairly and properly in Committee and on Report, so that the will of the House and the will of the British people is accepted.
Mr. David Hinchliffe (Wakefield)
rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question put, That the Question be now put:--
The House proceeded to a Division--
Mr. Garnier (seated and covered):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The closure motion is wholly unnecessary. There are 20 minutes left until a Division needs to be called.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
The hon. and learned Gentleman knows that that is a matter of discretion for the Chair. I have used my discretion.
Mr. Garnier:
I am appealing to your discretion, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There was no question of the Bill being talked out. I invite--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. That is the hon. and learned Gentleman's opinion. There is now a Division. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman may wish to take part in that Division. It is up to him. I shall now put the Question again.
Question agreed to.
Question put accordingly, That the Bill be now read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 411, Noes 151.
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