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Pensions

34. Mr. Bill O'Brien: What assessment the Church Commissioners have made of the impact of pension provisions on the number of people applying for a career in the Church since Parliament approved the current pension provisions. [16831]

Mr. Straw: This is not strictly a matter for the Church Commissioners. I understand, however, from the advisory board of ministry that the number of candidates recommended for training for the ministry increased significantly in 1996 and this year. Confidence in the Church's arrangements for funding the ministry may have played a part in this encouraging development.

Mr. O'Brien: Does my right hon. Friend accept that it is time that the Church Commissioners took far more

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interest in ensuring that those who serve in the Church receive proper pensions and other rights? I consider that they are entitled to the same pension rights as Members of Parliament. I hope that the Church Commissioners will take some interest in the future of those who serve in the Church.

Mr. Straw: I shall ensure that my hon. Friend's remarks are passed on to the commissioners who deal directly and professionally with the issue. It is reasonable to point out that the number of people recommended for training was 420 in 1995, 453 in 1996 and 486 so far in 1997. The Church Commissioners are concerned to maintain the funding of clergy pensions and that is why they have made new arrangements. From 1 January next year, dioceses will meet the cost from funds provided by parishes of all clergy pension rights for future service, but not for past service. That is being done not least so that the commissioners can ensure the future funding of stipends in needy areas.

Mr. Sayeed: In his Budget, the Chancellor imposed a £5 billion tax on pensions. How much will it cost parishioners to fund that tax?

Mr. Straw: I think that the hon. Gentleman is talking about changes to advance corporation tax. The cost to the Church Commissioners will be £12 million per annum in 1997 values. The commissioners tell me that they welcome the time allowed by the Government to plan for the removal of ACT relief and the phasing of its impact between 1999 and 2004.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission was asked--

National Audit Office

35. Miss McIntosh: How many lawyers are employed by the National Audit Office. [16832]

Mr. Robert Sheldon (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission): The National Audit Office does not employ staff as lawyers, although 10 graduates in law are employed by its auditors. The National Audit Office obtains legal advice as required from various sources including commercial firms and the Treasury Solicitor.

Miss McIntosh: Is any of those people sufficiently qualified in public procurement contracts for tender under European Union regulations? Was any of them consulted before the contract was awarded for the refurbishment of Canary Wharf prior to the recent Anglo-French summit?

Mr. Sheldon: There is a big difference between the way in which auditors are employed by the National Audit

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Office and the way in which they are employed on the continent. In other countries, auditors have legal representation because they regard that as rather more important than the auditing function. The hon. Lady should understand that the Public Accounts Committee looks at value for money extremely well. I am sure that its Chairman, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr. Davis), will want to satisfy himself that that continues to be the case.

DEFENCE

The Secretary of State was asked--

Persian Gulf

15. Mr. Waterson: What is the level of Her Majesty's forces currently deployed in the Persian gulf. [16810]

Dr. Reid: UK forces currently deployed in the Gulf consist of HMS Coventry, supported by Royal Fleet Auxiliary Bayleaf, as part of the Armilla patrol. Shore- based forces in the Gulf area comprise six RAF Tornado aircraft operating from Saudi Arabia, supported by two RAF VC10 tankers in Bahrain, which contribute to the enforcement of the no-fly zone over southern Iraq. A UK battalion is currently exercising in Kuwait as part of a routine training programme.

Mr. Waterson: I thank the Minister for that answer. Will he confirm that, as long as there is a perceived threat in the region, this country will continue to maintain similar forces? Does he agree that the current regime in Iraq is all too willing to perceive as a sign of weakness any reduction in our forces or those of our allies in the area? That is another good reason for maintaining the current level of availability of British forces in the region.

Dr. Reid: Yes, we have made absolutely plain our concern about the potential existence and use of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq under the control of Saddam Hussein. That is why we have made it clear throughout this period that although we have of course sought, and will continue to seek, a diplomatic solution, we will not rule out the use of force. As the hon. Gentleman will know, HMS Invincible remains in the Mediterranean, ready to respond at short notice, giving the UK flexibility in the near future should Saddam's promise of co-operation with UNSCOM prove illusory.

The hon. Gentleman may also be aware that in the past few days my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence visited HMS Invincible to speak to the men and women who are serving on that aircraft carrier and who will be discharging the responsibility of this country in the efforts of the international community to ensure that the will of the United Nations cannot be thwarted and that the danger and menace of weapons of mass destruction is not held over the head of the global community.

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Points of Order

3.30 pm

Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Following the actions of Welsh farmers in Holyhead last night, has the Secretary of State for Wales asked to make a statement to the House today? I make it plain that I cannot condone the actions of those farmers--we could never condone such illegal actions--but the Secretary of State should answer some pertinent questions about the problems that those farmers face.

For example, recent figures show that there has been at least a 30 per cent. drop in the incomes of Welsh farmers, a strengthening of the green pound because of the Government's economic actions, and a £16 million clawback of the hill livestock compensatory allowance payments to farmers in less-favoured areas--all this at a time when money is generally being made available because of the ewe premium rebate, which should be coming back to support Welsh farmers.

Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is now getting into a policy argument. I let him continue because I wanted to check when Welsh questions were--they happen to be on Wednesday.

Several hon. Members rose--

Madam Speaker: Order. I have not yet finished. The question was whether the Secretary of State for Wales had asked to make a statement. The answer is no, I have not been informed that he is seeking to do so. The hon. Gentleman raised a lengthy point of order--I hope that those on the Government Front Bench have taken note of it and that the House has noted that Welsh questions are on Wednesday.

Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. My question relates to the tabling of oral questions. I understand from the media that the Lord Chancellor has let it be known that he sees himself as having a new co-ordinating role across Government Departments as, in his words, "a new Cardinal Wolsey". If we wish to question him on that matter in the Chamber, should we do so through his Parliamentary Secretary or through the Department concerned? He appears to have started with the Ministry of Defence.

Madam Speaker: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am not responsible for the rota of when Ministers answer questions. That is determined through the usual channels. It is for the individual Member to determine which Minister is responsible for answering the question that is tabled. If there are any problems, I know that the Clerks in the Table Office will provide guidelines and as much help as possible.

Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I do not want in any way to quibble with your response to the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), but I would want to raise under Standing Order No. 24 the issue that has been concerning us overnight. It is a matter not just for Welsh Ministers but for the whole of the rural community, the whole of the United Kingdom and all of us who represent agricultural

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constituencies. I would suggest that when patient people such as British farmers resort to civil disorder on the scale that they have, it is a very serious matter and, although we would not wish to condone their action, we should have an opportunity to debate it in the House.


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