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Higher Education
2. Mr. Welsh: How many Scottish universities he has visited since 1 May to discuss higher education provision in Scotland. [17091]
The Minister for Education and Industry, Scottish Office (Mr. Brian Wilson): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State visited the university of Dundee in November. I visited the universities of Abertay Dundee and Strathclyde in September and the university of Edinburgh in November.
My right hon. Friend and I attended a working dinner with the principals of the Scottish higher education institutions at the university of Glasgow in June. My right hon. Friend also addressed a meeting of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals in September, and I attended the annual forum of the Committee of Scottish Higher Education Principals in October.
Mr. Welsh:
The Government claim that nobody should be deterred from higher education because of financial circumstances. Why, since the abolition of maintenance grants and the introduction of tuition fees--in addition to student loans--have applications for universities fallen by about 10 per cent.? Will the Government now abandon that short-sighted and disastrous policy?
Mr. Wilson:
The hon. Gentleman would be well advised to wait until the figures are finalised. He would do his constituents and the young people of Scotland a service if he contributed to a more accurate flow of information.
The three virtues of our proposal are, first, that it will put up to £140 million extra a year into Scottish higher and further education; secondly, 40 per cent. of Scottish students will pay not a penny in tuition fees; and thirdly, when the vast majority of students in Scotland graduate, they will repay less per month than at present. If the hon. Gentleman would help to get those three messages across, he would be doing the young people of Scotland a service. I would send the same message to everyone who has participated in misinformation, possibly based on misunderstanding.
Mrs. McKenna:
I welcome my hon. Friend's statement. Does he agree that access to higher education
Mr. Wilson:
Indeed, I confirm that that will be the case from next April. That is a move forward of great importance to lone parents. We shall be producing a separate Scottish White Paper on lifelong learning which will cover a wide range of initiatives in that field.
My overwhelming message today is that nobody should be deterred from entering higher education by misinformation. I urge all potential students from all backgrounds to get the correct information and to make informed choices on that basis.
Sir Michael Spicer:
The Scottish higher education budget is part of a wider education budget for Scotland. It is a matter of fact that that budget, per head of population, is 25 per cent. higher than it is for England. How long will that situation continue for Scotland, when the income differentials between England and Scotland have narrowed almost to nothing?
Mr. Wilson:
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could take a tutorial from the right hon. Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Mr. Clark), who has some acquaintance with Sutherland. The hon. Gentleman would then learn something about the geography and demography of Scotland, and he might understand why more factors than mere population statistics determine how public funds are allocated. The decisions within the Scottish budget are taken according to priorities and needs. We place a high priority, as I am sure do my hon. Friends south of the border, on education.
We shall continue to make choices and I shall continue to take pride in the extra money that we have managed to get into every aspect of Scottish education since 1 May. I remind the hon. Gentleman that one of the burdens that we are very pleased to bear is £80 million from the Scottish block grant for students who come from other parts of the United Kingdom into higher education in Scotland.
Dr. Lynda Clark:
I am grateful for my hon. Friend's assurances in relation to adult students. I am particularly concerned about the situation of students from low-income families. Can the Minister tell us what policies there are to assist such students?
Mr. Wilson:
It is important to understand that the headline caricature of £1,000 a year tuition fees is not true. On present statistics, 40 per cent. of Scottish students will be entirely exempt from tuition fees. That is extremely important.
The other major inhibitor to young people from less well-off backgrounds going into higher education is the concern that they will have to pay back maintenance loans despite perhaps not earning after leaving university--in other words, a mortgage-type loan. It is essential that it should be understood that after our proposals are implemented all repayments will be income contingent, which means that if the individual does not earn he or she will not repay.
If those factors are put together, it is obvious that there is no barrier to people from lower-income backgrounds going into higher education. On the contrary, there are many incentives to do so. I urge every young person who has the academic ability and qualifications to go into higher education to do precisely that.
Mr. Menzies Campbell:
How many of the principals of Scottish universities whom the Minister and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State have met have given unequivocal support to the proposal for tuition fees, especially bearing in mind the effect that the proposal will have on students from other parts of the United Kingdom deciding to come to Scottish universities?
Will the Minister take an early opportunity to visit St. Andrews university in my constituency, which has substantial experience of these matters? Indeed, 44 per cent. of its students come from countries in the United Kingdom other than Scotland. Will not the Minister relieve himself of the serious charge of discrimination by abandoning the discredited proposals for tuition fees at Scottish universities?
Mr. Wilson:
I would be anxious to visit a cross-section of universities. If I went to St. Andrews with its 44 per cent. of students from south of the border, I might equally go to Paisley university with its 1 per cent. If I went to St. Andrews, I would not swallow whole everything that the principal told me. I might even advise the principal that if he wants to maintain the precise number of students from outwith Scotland, especially from England, it is absolutely open to him to do so. He could do so by taking more students from that large group who are not subject to tuition fees and are therefore not affected by our proposals.
Mr. Campbell:
It would make it more exclusive.
Mr. Wilson:
By definition, those who do not pay tuition fees are students from lower-income backgrounds. If the principal of St. Andrews wanted to go down that road, I would welcome it. I wonder whether the hon. and learned Gentleman would do so.
3. Mr. Baldry:
If he will make a statement on the interdepartmental concordat relating to inward investment in respect of Scotland. [17092]
10. Mr. Gray:
What discussions he has had recently with the President of the Board of Trade on inward investment matters. [17099]
Mr. Wilson:
The Government undertook in our White Paper "Scotland's Parliament", Cm 3658, to produce a concordat on common guidelines and consultation arrangements on the handling of financial assistance to industry. Discussions are proceeding among interested Departments.
Mr. Baldry:
Is not the concordat really a con on the people of Scotland? The Government are seeking to give the impression that a Scottish Parliament will have control over inward investment into Scotland when the reality
Mr. Wilson:
I can understand the attractiveness of that line of argument to the hon. Gentleman. However, the timetable is bang on schedule. That is a tribute to the draftsmen and to everyone else working with them, and one that refutes the hon. Gentleman's implied criticism. It is entirely proper, and much in Scotland's interests, that a concordat should be in place and that there should be a set of rules.
Locate in Scotland has done very well over the years because it is extremely good at what it does. It is not in Scotland's interests to have a state of affairs where various agencies are bidding against one another, expensively and unproductively. That is why it is right to have rules and a concordat and on that basis Scotland will continue to do very well with inward investment, which is in the interests of Scotland and the United Kingdom as a whole.
Mr. Gray:
Will the Minister pay tribute to the record £5 billion of inward investment that was achieved under the Conservative Government? Does he agree that that record achievement stands a good chance of being undermined by the triple whammy of the Scottish Parliament, the social chapter and the minimum wage?
Mr. Wilson:
The brief answer is no, but I will make a slightly fuller reply in response to the earlier point. Yes, I pay tribute to a great deal of the work that was done. I pay tribute to some of the decisions that were taken and to the continuing work of Locate in Scotland throughout that period. I do not pay tribute, however--I do not attribute this to the hon. Gentleman--to hon. Members, perhaps from other parties, who welcome job announcements, but who at the first whiff of grapeshot and difficulty start to condemn and say things that are very different from what they said when the announcements were greeted. We have seen examples of that in recent days in relation to the reports on Hyundai.
Mr. O'Neill:
Does my hon. Friend agree that although the success of Britain has been considerable, as a share of the European total the number of jobs and projects that Britain has achieved has fallen, that it is essential that there should not be wasteful competition between the various parts of the United Kingdom, and that for that reason as much as for financial concerns we need a proper concordat between the English regional development agencies, when they arrive, and the Parliaments in Scotland and Wales and the Northern Ireland Development Office?
Mr. Wilson:
My hon. Friend speaks with authority on these matters, and is absolutely correct. It is a paranoid response to believe that rules will always work against us. That is not the case. The political situation is changing,
Mr. Connarty:
Is my hon. Friend aware of the excellent joint ventures across borders between, for example, Elf of France and BP in my constituency at Grangemouth, or Toatsu of Japan and Zeneca in my constituency, or Rhom and Haas and its Japanese partners? Does he agree that it is the stability of the relationships between Scotland and the regions of England that has created these? In fact, in the chemical industries people do not talk about Scotland, England or other parts of the UK, but about east coast Britain, which goes from Teesside to the Don in Aberdeen. Does not the small-minded and hypocritical approach of the Conservatives merely continue the attempt to divide people and to prevent decent partnerships from being put together between the private and the public sectors, which has always been their strategy?
Mr. Wilson:
I agree with the thrust of what my hon. Friend says, although I do not associate the last charge with anything that we have heard from hon. Members today. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that part of Scotland's strength as an inward investment destination is its place within the United Kingdom. In a recent visit to the far east, I had excellent assistance and co-operation from UK representatives abroad. There is, of course, a crossover between what we can do for Scotland directly and our inward investment effort for the United Kingdom as a whole, and long may that continue--it is very much in Scotland's interests.
Mr. Wallace:
Does the Minister agree that, as well as the important job of attracting inward investment, the Scottish Parliament will be wise if it tries to devise strategies to promote indigenous companies in Scotland? It might equally be wise to enter into a concordat with other development agencies in the rest of the United Kingdom to try to prevent--I think that these were the Minister's words--the expensive and unproductive outbidding that there has been? Will the Minister assure the House that that will be a decision that the Scottish Parliament can freely make and not be bound beforehand by any decision of the Secretary of State?
Mr. Wilson:
The Scottish Parliament's responsibilities in this area are clearly set out in the White Paper and will be translated into legislation. They are easily understood and must be enforceable. I have no doubt that the political focus that the Scottish Parliament will put on issues of economic development and inward investment will be beneficial for Scotland. I must make it clear that we are completely evenhanded. I am very anxious to stress again the support that is available to indigenous companies. No case has been brought to my attention in which indigenous companies have been refused assistance because resources were unavailable through the investment that was made in attracting companies coming into Scotland. The happiest arrangement of all is for
Mr. Alasdair Morgan:
Given that Locate in Scotland is one of the most successful inward investment agencies in Europe, will the Minister explain why new rules are necessary at this stage? Furthermore, as Scotland usually competes not with the north-east of England but with the Czech Republic or the Irish Republic, is there not a danger that new rules will reduce the total amount of inward investment into the United Kingdom rather than transfer it to somewhere else in the United Kingdom?
Mr. Wilson:
Let us be clear about this: Locate in Scotland does better for Scotland within the United Kingdom than any other development agency in Europe, and that is how we intend to keep it. The hon. Gentleman asked why we needed to change or update the rules. It may have escaped his notice that major constitutional change is taking place. There will be a Scottish Parliament and a Welsh Parliament, and there will be a group of powerful economic development agencies in Europe. The hon. Gentleman should understand that rules can work in Scotland's interests. The idea that someone is always trying to steal our piece and working against Scotland is ridiculous. I welcome the rules, and we shall work with other Departments to bring them to fruition.
Mr. Ancram:
Why were these important and totally foreseeable inward investment issues not resolved before the devolution referendum, which has given them such unhelpful exposure? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the unseemly Cabinet row that is now raging is very damaging to inward investment not only in Scotland but in the rest of the United Kingdom? Does he share my fear that if his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his colleagues in the same Cabinet find it so difficult to agree on such matters it will be well nigh impossible in the future for a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly and a queue of English regions to do so? Is that what his right hon. Friend meant by devolution strengthening the United Kingdom?
Mr. Wilson:
The right hon. Gentleman should not always believe what he reads in the newspapers. There is constructive dialogue to produce the best possible solution for Scotland and for the United Kingdom as a whole. That is our aim, and that will be our achievement.
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