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7.30 pm
My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Gapes) said that this was a modest treaty and that he expected it to take us forward from Maastricht to an era of enlargement and reform of the common agricultural policy. He believed that if we accepted the amendments, we would hold up that process. He rejected the amendments for that important reason; I reject them for that reason and others.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Rammell) supported my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South; he opposed the amendments for similar reasons. He also said that he thought that the contributions from Conservative Members were unrepresentative of the views of the Committee and of the Opposition generally. That imbalance has been partially corrected today, because we have seen that there are very different views within the Conservative party on Europe.
Many Conservatives feel that the leadership of their party has got things wrong and risks alienating the British public for a long time. It is important for British democracy that that view has been put today and that the British people know that the Conservative leadership does not have the support of a significant section of the Conservative party on the issue.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman) said that she would not support the amendments because she wanted to move on to the real debate on structural funds which would follow the Luxembourg summit. She said that that was of great importance for her constituency and I can understand why she took that view.
I did not expect the same support from my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) as I had from other hon. Friends. However, I was pleased that they highlighted the importance of seeking high employment. There may be some differences on how we can best reduce unemployment and get higher employment, but my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend agreed that it was important that the treaty emphasised tackling unemployment, and they are right.
My hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend also asked, in different ways, whether it was possible to define a high level of employment. I do not think that it is possible to define that because there are as many different views on that as there are Members of Parliament. What matters is that we all recognise the importance of tackling the terrible problem of unemployment. That is a very important issue in the European context and in the context of our nation state.
My hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend said that by raising the issue of employment, we also raised the important issue of employability. I know that we shall discuss the matter later in Committee so I do not want to dwell on it now. However, it is crucial that as a wider European community, we consider how we best prepare ourselves to take on the jobs challenge of tomorrow. There is agreement on that in the factories and businesses of my constituency because the people who work there know that they must be employable tomorrow. If they are employable, businesses will flourish and will be able to provide them with employment.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot):
Can the Minister explain to the Committee why the United Kingdom is enjoying increasingly lower unemployment while unemployment is rising on the continent? Is it, perhaps, something to do with the social chapter and all the burdens on business on the continent which we in these islands have resisted?
Mr. Henderson:
I am tempted to say to the hon. Gentleman that seven months of a Labour Government have not done us any harm in that regard. The hon. Gentleman raises a serious question, however. One cannot measure employment over a short period; one must look at it over the long term. Over the long term, we have no better record than comparable countries in the European Union. It is arguable that for much of the period of Conservative Government, we had a far poorer record than many of our European partners. The main factor is that the business cycle is at a different point and that is the real reason why there is a difference between us and our European partners.
Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney):
If we can have inflation targets, monetary targets and deficit targets, why can we not have employment targets?
Mr. Henderson:
My hon. Friend will recognise that it is easier for the Government to be specific about inflation targets and to take measures that are tightly linked to achieving those targets than to set employment targets. Even if the Government had to set employment targets, it would not be easy to hit them, as my hon. Friend will understand. That is why it is important to get the approach right. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor made it clear in his statement to the House three weeks ago that the important thing is to fight inflation and to get the right monetary context, and then to take all the other measures to raise employability which will help to tackle the problem of unemployment.
Sir Peter Tapsell:
The hon. Gentleman has just said what people are perpetually saying, which is that the economic cycle in Britain is different from that on the continent of Europe. The whole point of economics is to try to influence economic cycles. The reason why our economic cycle is in a beneficial phase is that we left the exchange rate mechanism in 1992. The reason why European countries are in a bad economic cycle is that they stayed within it.
Mr. Henderson:
I know that the hon. Gentleman follows these matters closely. He would be dishonest with
Mr. Flight:
Unemployment can be caused by cyclical or structural factors. Surely it is clear that the major cause of unemployment in Europe is structural. The European economies have been in an up-cycle for the past 18 months and will probably reach the peak of that cycle during the next six months. There is still massive and rising structural unemployment which results from the social chapter and the huge cost of employing people.
Mr. Henderson:
The hon. Gentleman is in a fantasy world. Of course employment is influenced by cyclical and structural factors, but the hon. Gentleman is surely not telling me that the reason why all the shipyards went bust in the north of England was cyclical issues or burdens on business. It happened because of fundamental structural imbalances in the economy. We have to improve employability to take on the challenges in Europe and the rest of the world. It is important to make progress in the Amsterdam treaty so that we can take up the other issues at Luxembourg and beyond.
Mr. Denzil Davies (Llanelli)
rose--
Mr. Henderson:
My patience will be exhausted in a little while.
Mr. Taylor:
I intervene to help the Minister. The flexible labour policies that the Chancellor has been preaching recently--he has begun to understand why we put those policies into practice when we were in government--are crucial to the success of economic and monetary union. Those of us who can envisage economic and monetary union taking place understand that flexible labour markets are at the heart of it. There is no confusion. The Minister can admit that flexible markets will assist the reduction in unemployment and the increase in the number of jobs created on the continent. That will be good news for the whole European Union.
Mr. Henderson:
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. I do not totally disagree with him. However, I do not think that there is any conflict between giving working people protection--in some instances at a European level, but in more instances at a nation state level--and having a flexible labour market that allows companies to change their production methods and reskill workers so that they can take on the challenges of tomorrow. I see the hon. Gentleman smile slightly. He knows that business people tell him the same as they have told me.
Mr. Denzil Davies:
I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend. As a non-economist, I have always been
Mr. Henderson:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising that. If I knew the answer, I would be rich--although I am probably debarred as a Minister from allowing my bank to invest on my behalf. A cycle lasts as long as it lasts. We cannot predict how long the current cycle will last. We can only prepare for decisions that we may want to take in future on European currencies. It is crucial that we debate such matters and that businesses are aware of the debate, take part in it and prepare themselves for the decision.
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