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Dr. Jenny Tonge (Richmond Park): I know that the Secretary of State is aware of the difficulties that occur between health services and social services, especially when it comes to care of the elderly. Will he give us an assurance that the commission will examine ways of forging permanent links between health services and community health services, because that is where the delay occurs?
Mr. Dobson: I confirm that the commission will examine that issue. At the risk of falling foul of you,
Madam Speaker, I predict that our forthcoming White Paper on the national health service will emphasise the importance of that issue, as will the other White Paper to which I referred.
Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham): In warmly welcoming the Secretary of State's announcement and in deploring the rather churlish and mean-minded response by the official Opposition, which shows that they have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing, may I invite my right hon. Friend to ask the commission to consider that the founding premise, indeed promise, of the national health service--our insurance system of cradle-to-grave protection--has never, through its 50 years, been properly financed? In particular, the refusal of the previous Government to oblige all citizens to pay their fair share of inter-solidarity support has undermined it.
Can he assure me that the commission will look at collective provision, tax provision, mutual provision, compulsory insurance provision, such as exists for motor cars, and voluntary private provision? Finance is the key, and it must provide the answer. Labour can provide that answer, but the previous Government, because of their hatred of the NHS and local authority provision, refused to tackle the problem.
Mr. Dobson:
I cannot guarantee what the royal commission's recommendations will be, but I can guarantee that it will examine all the options to which my hon. Friend refers.
Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire):
Does not the Secretary of State realise that his statement will be cold comfort to one of my constituents who, at the general election, was reduced to tears at the prospect of having to sell her home to pay for residential care? Does not he realise that the Prime Minister used exactly that kind of example at the general election and said that he would do something about it? A scheme based on partnership funding through insurance was available. The Secretary of State has said nothing to show why it is not necessary and desirable to proceed with exactly that kind of scheme, which would provide assets for long-term care and give hope to people in that situation. He took seven months to initiate the commission and is allowing 12 months for it to sit. Heaven knows how long the Secretary of State will take to act.
Mr. Dobson:
All I can say is that the old people in the hon. Gentleman's area and in the rest of the country will not be impressed by a Tory party that apparently thinks that it can carry conviction when it shifts from being Genghis Khan to Mother Teresa in the space of seven months.
Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham):
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. While he is wise not to seek to prejudge the royal commission's conclusions, will he put it on the record that the terms of reference allow a thorough study of the private insurance and personal provision options? Will he take this opportunity--one that he has not been afforded to date--to acknowledge that much of what is already provided by the public and private sectors is admirable and that those who provide it should be congratulated? Does he accept that I genuinely
Mr. Dobson:
I can guarantee few things in this world, but I can guarantee that the royal commission will look at all the options that have been mentioned and perhaps many more. I certainly pay tribute to the quality of care and treatment that are provided for the majority of old people. Sadly, not all are in that majority. There are failings, and the present regulatory system has been quite unsatisfactory for a long time. We are sorting it out before the royal commission reports.
Dr. Peter Brand (Isle of Wight):
I am sure that anyone who has had to work within the present muddle of continuing care will welcome the statement. Will the royal commission also consider day care and its quality and funding as part of the continuing care package?
Mr. Dobson:
I can guarantee that it is imperative that the commission looks at all aspects of care. Most people would rather stay in their own homes, where they have lived for donkeys' years and where they feel comfortable and know the neighbours, than have to be moved out because they are no longer capable of being sustained at home. The ambition of all hon. Members is to stay in their own homes, and that is what most other people want. We must provide services to people's homes and perhaps local services that they can just about toddle out to, provided crime and disorder are not at such a level that they are frightened to do that. That is a major consideration for old people. We must improve the quality and availability of those services. I expect, but I cannot guarantee, that the royal commission will make recommendations on those lines.
Business of the House
4.14 pm
The President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mrs. Ann Taylor): With permission, Madam Speaker, I shall make a statement about the business for next week.
Monday 8 December--Second Reading of the Government of Wales Bill.
Tuesday 9 December--Second Reading of the Government of Wales Bill.
At 10 pm, the House will be asked to agree the winter supplementary estimates, the votes on account and supplementary defence vote A.
Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Wednesday 10 December--Until 2 pm, there will be debates on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Remaining stages of the Social Security Bill.
Thursday 11 December--Remaining stages of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Bill.
Friday 12 December--Private Members' Bills.
The provisional business for the following week is as follows.
Monday 15 December--Second Reading of the Police (Northern Ireland) Bill.
Tuesday 16 December--Second Reading of the National Minimum Wage Bill.
Wednesday 17 December--Until 2 pm, there will be debates on a motion for the Adjournment of the House, which will include the usual three-hour pre-recess debate.
Until 7 pm, there will be a debate on the common fisheries policy, on a Government motion.
Progress in Committee on the European Communities (Amendment) Bill.
Thursday 18 December--Second Reading of the Public Processions etc (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords].
Friday 19 December--Debate on welfare to work on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Monday 22 December--Second Reading of the School Standards and Framework Bill.
The House will rise for the Christmas recess.
The House will also wish to be reminded that on Tuesday 9 December there will be a debate on Agenda 2000: structural and cohesion policy, in European Standing Committee B.
On Wednesday 10 December, there will be a debate on Agenda 2000: reform of the common agricultural policy, in European Standing Committee A; and a debate on Agenda 2000: a new financial framework, in European Standing Committee B.
Details of the relevant documents will be given in the Official Report.
[Tuesday 9 December:
European Standing Committee B--Relevant European Community document: 9984/97, Agenda 2000: Structural and Cohesion Policy. Relevant European Legislation Committee report: HC 155-vi (1997-98).
Wednesday 10 December:
European Standing Committee A--Relevant European Community document: 9984/97, Agenda 2000: Reform of the CAP. Relevant European Legislation Committee report: HC 155-vi (1997-98).
European Standing Committee B--Relevant European Community document: 9984/97, Agenda 2000, New Financial Framework. Relevant European Legislation Committee report: HC 155-vi (1997-98).]
Mrs. Gillian Shephard (South-West Norfolk):
I thank the right hon. Lady for her statement. I also thank her for arranging that there should be no Government statement on last Monday's Opposition day.
I note that the right hon. Lady announced provisional business for Monday 22 December. As she knows, my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack) expressed concerns last week, which I share, about the necessity for making the House sit on that day, causing unexpected inconvenience for those who serve the House. However, a debate on educational matters would put the day to good use, although I note that it is only provisional at this stage.
I should be grateful for information from the right hon. Lady on her proposals for handling the Welsh and Scottish devolution Bills. As she knows, the Opposition feel strongly that all stages should be taken on the Floor of the House, as they are self-evidently Bills of major constitutional importance. She has mentioned some ideas to me on the matter, and I should be grateful if she would tell the House where matters stand.
I think that the right hon. Lady was present in the House yesterday for the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), who pointed out that journalists had been faxed at 3.55 pm full information on the statement made by the Secretary of State for Scotland in the Scottish Grand Committee at 4.30 pm. She will also recall that yesterday I complained to her and to you, Madam Speaker, that Opposition Members read on Ceefax that there was to be a Government statement on BSE, some 20 minutes before the Government told us about the statement.
The Government persist in treating the House, its procedures and its Members with contempt. We know that the Government have a large majority, but that should mean that they respect parliamentary democracy, not that they despise it. I continue to be saddened by the fact that the right hon. Lady does not answer straight questions on such matters from me and from others and that, unlike her distinguished predecessors, she seems to see her role as defender of the Government and not defender of the House and the interests of its Members. I hope that this afternoon the right hon. Lady will address those points and the others that I intend to raise.
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