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7.58 pm
Mr. Gareth Thomas (Clwyd, West): I am proud to speak in a debate on such a truly historic and momentous occasion, because we have the ability to vote for a national assembly for Wales. As a Labour Member, I should like to devote my speech to putting the cultural, patriotic and national case for a national Welsh Assembly. I realise also that there is a very strong, even overwhelming, democratic case and even--on this I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands--an economic case for establishing an assembly. It is essential that we develop a class of politicians and civil servants who will concentrate on developing a strategy for economic regeneration in Wales.
I will confine my remarks to the cultural case for a Welsh Assembly. Putting the Bill into its historical perspective, it bears comparison with such momentous dates in Welsh history as the statute of Rhuddlan, in 1286; the Act of Union of 1536; such developments in Welsh culture as the Bible's translation into Welsh--an act that has some geographical significance for my constituency; developments in the 18th and 19th centuries leading to administrative devolution; and, in recent years, establishment of the Welsh Office.
The Bill is part of a sequence of events and marks a change in the relationship between Wales and Britain. Given the unitary nature of the British state and the fact that we do not have a written constitution, it would be idle to pretend that the work of reforming the relationship between Wales, Britain and the other countries of the United Kingdom will not be a difficult task. Awkward issues will be raised.
In the right spirit--a spirit of confidence which the assembly will engender--there is no reason why we cannot overcome the practical difficulties and awkward questions that were so eloquently asked, in such a penetrating manner, by my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies).
If I have a quarrel with my two distinguished hon. Friends--bearing in mind that I share with my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli experience of the
legal profession, as we are both barristers--it is that I normally confine my worst points until after the jury delivers the verdict. Surely there was a case for confining comments on awkward and perhaps intractable questions until after the verdict had been delivered by the Welsh people. Nevertheless, I accept that they have promoted a principled debate, and the questions that they and others have asked will have to be answered in Committee.
Devolution has been an important aspect of Labour party policy for many years. Keir Hardie himself promoted the idea of home rule. We have heard in this debate that the Liberal party and David Lloyd-George progressed the idea of home rule through the ill-fated Cymru Fydd movement. In recent years, S. O. Davies and Jim Griffiths--Labour Members' predecessors--were proponents of devolution.
It is essential that a national assembly is established so that Wales is recognised as a distinctive cultural and historical community. A nationalist and patriotic case can be made for an assembly, but it is nationalism that is positive and not mutually exclusive. Establishing an assembly is a recognition that different nations inhabit this island, and that Britain is a state, not a nation.
Establishing an assembly is part of a move towards a decentralised model of Europe. Is it not heartening that Wales will have the opportunity to be in the vanguard of that movement? Wales--the cradle of the industrial revolution, the Labour party and the national health service--will now be in the vanguard of the movement towards democratic decentralised government. The Welsh national assembly will be established one whole year before a similar body is established in Scotland.
We will have a magnificent opportunity to raise both Wales's profile and our confidence as a nation. Much has been made of the prosperity gap between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom, and one of the assembly's great priorities will be to address that disparity. There is also a confidence gap. The historical fact, however, is that we will soon have a Welsh Assembly--the ultimate symbol of Welsh national identity.
I should like the national assembly to foster a self-confidence that is not elitist or based on language. There is also much room for improvement in Wales--I speak as a Welsh speaker--in democratising some Welsh institutions which are too beholden to the vested interests of the Welsh-speaking elite. I should like the assembly to attack that type of democratic deficit in Wales. We have an opportunity to forge a new sense of citizenship, in partnership not only with local authorities but with the people of Wales.
Cardiff is a truly European city. We also have a magnificent university, which is unique in its federal structure and its history. It was built by the workers of Wales, over many years, on the basis of voluntary contribution. We also have a language that is among the oldest in Europe. We must create a culture of bilingualism which is not exclusive, and a sense of ownership--in both English-speaking and Welsh-speaking communities--of our language.
Our film and television industry is flourishing, as is our popular music. In Mold, we have Theatr Clwyd, a national theatre of Wales, which I hope will go from strength to strength. Culture in Wales is flowering, and the symbolic act of establishing the assembly can only assist in continuing the process.
It is significant that, a few weeks ago, no less a person than my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport addressed a London conference on the importance of culture--in its widest sense--in fostering a creative economy and a sense of citizenship. Many aspects of national life depend not on material well-being but on a feel-good factor in its broader sense. Ability to participate in the arts should be available across the board. Much can be done, and a great opportunity is before us.
On a point of detail, clause 22 and schedule 2 do not provide for responsibility for broadcasting to be transferred to the Welsh Assembly. Although there are undoubtedly practical difficulties in such a transfer, I should like S4C to be made the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly. We should be moving in Wales towards becoming a more mature democracy and a truly bilingual society, in which people are not oversensitive to the prospect of such institutions--which many would say hold an advantageous position--being the responsibility of our national assembly. I do not believe that there is anything to lose from opening the process of democracy, even in Welsh language broadcasting.
Wales has had some great sporting achievements. Glamorgan won the county championship this year, for example, and the rugby world cup will soon be held in Wales.
I have not yet mentioned the more traditional aspects of Welsh culture--such as our eisteddfodau and our magnificent literature, in both Welsh and English. Welsh literature dates back to the 6th and 7th centuries, predating Chaucer. Although those aspects of Wales and Welsh culture have not received much prominence in this debate, they should be mentioned. We have a strong patriotic and cultural case for a Welsh Assembly.
I shall conclude on two personal notes. Like many Welsh people, I was brought up in England, and I salute the work of the Welsh communities in Liverpool and London who have for so many years kept alive the flame of Welsh culture and political identity. Together with millions of Welsh people, many involved in extractive industries such as coal mining and slate quarrying--that was my family's background--my family moved over the border to England. We had to--we had no choice. Surely the assembly will sound the death knell of the old saying, "If you want to get on, you have to get out."
Finally, I, like many people, was very emotional on the night of the referendum. We knew that it was going to be close and it was. I accept that the groundwork had not been done: we should have had a constitutional convention like the Scottish one to iron out the difficulties. That was not done, but the Government are doing the best that they can in a spirit of pragmatism and reason to overcome the awkward practical questions, and I feel confident that they will succeed. Around 3 am, my seven-year-old daughter, on her way to bed, asked "Ydi'r bobol na am ennill?", which means "Are the no people going to win?" At that stage, the fate of Wales hung in the balance, because it was not clear whether or not we were going to win.
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry):
There will be those who are somewhat surprised to find an Ulster Unionist Member of Parliament taking part in this debate, but I speak as a United Kingdom Member of Parliament. I also speak as a Member of Parliament representing the one part of the United Kingdom that has experience of a devolved institution.
I was further incited to take part in the debate by the comments of the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, the hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy). I trust that the Welshmen here will excuse my pronunciation of the hon. Gentleman's constituency--I am inclined to get Welsh pronunciations as far wrong as they get the Irish ones. I try occasionally to pronounce Welsh place names, but I fear that all I do is send the Welsh people listening into gales of laughter. I hope that I will be excused if my pronunciation never gets quite up to the mark.
The Minister of State said in a recent speech in Northern Ireland that he believed that
The whole question whether it is possible to have devolved government in a unitary state is not new, and we in the Ulster Unionist party have a strong attachment to devolution. However, judging by some of the remarks made this evening, there seems to be some confusion as to the difference between a devolved parliamentary or administrative system within a unitary state and a federal system. The two are poles apart. I have often thought that if we had had a more equitable distribution of the population between the four component parts of the United Kingdom, we might have considered a federal structure. It is, unfortunately, an historical fact that England's population is so overwhelmingly large in relation to that of the rest of the UK that it is not possible to create a sensible federal structure in this country.
We have made various efforts to have devolution in Ireland and elsewhere, but it is interesting to note that each of those efforts has had a different basis. The Government of Ireland Act 1920 kept a few powers and devolved everything else, whereas the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 devolved some powers and kept the rest and as a result very different sets of powers were devolved on each occasion. I am always surprised at how those who debate matters such as this appear to be adamantly opposed to looking across the Irish sea to the experiences and lessons lying open and evident to all. I sometimes wonder whether people are not deliberately closing their eyes; if they opened them, they might become more clearly aware of the consequences of their policies.
In the island of Ireland, we have had both devolved institutions and complete separation. I appreciate that the UK Government have always been concerned about the western seaboard of Great Britain--the geopolitical needs of this country were such that they always wanted to keep a toehold in Ireland. That is a consideration of centuries-old standing and I do not believe that it has changed to this very day. Eventually, however, they failed to keep all of the island within the UK, and the Republic became a separate state.
Far too many people forget that originally the 1920 Act set up two devolved institutions--one in Dublin and the other in Belfast. The Dublin one met but once; it never came back because it was taken over by the revolutionary Dail Eireann, which has existed from that day to this. The way in which the Republic gained self-governance was totally different from what happened in Belfast. Belfast was intent on remaining within the kingdom, and the Unionists there made it their business to ensure that they used the devolved institution to keep themselves within the kingdom.
Despite all the glowing remarks about devolved institutions and about separation bringing prosperity, the Republic of Ireland failed socially and economically. Anyone who looks at it cold-bloodedly will accept that. Only in recent years, when its Government were able to get a large amount of money on an annual basis from the Common Market did the Republic improve its social and economic position. The Republic made good use of the money that it received--of that there is no doubt. It is no part of the Unionist creed to want an impoverished Irish Republic--we would prefer to see it prosperous and wealthy, because then some of the difficulties we have experienced might disappear.
I believe that when we look at how devolved institutions were used in Northern Ireland to keep it within the United Kingdom, we can only assume that we will see a steady development towards a time when politics in both Scotland and Wales will become more constitutional in nature than has hitherto been the case. That is the fundamental division in Northern Ireland--the question asked is, "Which nation do you belong to?" Eventually, we will see unionist and nationalist politics in both Scotland and Wales.
In those circumstances, the remarks of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) will become more relevant, because he described the sorts of fistfuls of grit and filings that can be tossed into the machinery. No one need think that this is going to be an easy passage.
I bear no ill will towards Plaid Cymru or the Scottish nationalists; indeed, I get on well with both groups. I am under no illusions but that they are nationalist parties, just as I am under no illusions but that the sister party of the Labour movement, the SDLP, is a nationalist party. The long-term objectives of all these parties are very different from mine. We should clearly understand where these people are coming from and to what they aspire. They will use every weapon put in their hands to gain their objectives.
That is why I have asked three times in the House--once of a Welsh Office Minister, once of the Secretary of State for Scotland, and again today--a question that has not yet received an answer, but which must be answered by word or by deed. It is a simple question: in these
devolved institutions, will Labour members believe in the unionist cause? Will they put the Union first, just as the people of Northern Ireland, no matter what their social class, have had to put the Union first? To do that, they have had to submerge the social and economic divisions in their communities.
"the new context created by devolution in Scotland and Wales can be very helpful to us. We need to take account of the new institutions there in our thinking. We have a great deal to learn from what is happening there.
Given that it was a chap from Pembroke called Strongbow who did a great deal to set off some of the problemsin Ireland, it is always welcome to have another Welshman--albeit one of Irish extraction--offering us advice in the modern age.
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