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Mr. Jenkin: Would the hon. Gentleman confirm that a concordat for inward investment was never going to be necessary unless there was to be devolution of the nature proposed in the Bill? Will he also confirm that the WDA and Locate in Scotland are complaining bitterly about the new restrictions that that will mean for their activities? That concordat was specifically requested by the Prime Minister--Sir George Russell, the chairman of the Northern development corporation, must be extremely proud of one of his local Members. Does the Minister agree that it is likely that those restrictions will hamper the performance of the WDA because it will now have to work to explicit rules, outside the normal collective responsibility of Cabinet Government?
Mr. Griffiths: The WDA and any other regional development agency in the United Kingdom will be bound exactly by the same rules that cover everyone else. There will be no essential difference; everything that Wales and the WDA have done so far has been within the rules which exist at British Government and European Union level.
Mr. Jenkin: Why is it complaining?
Mr. Griffiths: It is not complaining. Let me make that absolutely clear.
Mr. Paterson: Why, then, does the Confederation of British Industry fear delay in decision making from the WDA?
Mr. Griffiths: One or two members of the CBI have said that, but let me make it clear that many other business people in Wales take exactly the opposite view. It is all right for one Member from north Shropshire to call in aid one or two members of the CBI, but there are dozens of others who take an opposite view. [Interruption.] I am quite confident--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. There is far too much noise from both sides of the Chamber. Only one Member should be addressing the House.
Mr. Griffiths: Given the commitment in the Bill to consult business interests, I am quite confident that the Welsh Assembly will be able to help the WDA and other organisations committed to economic development in Wales to ensure that we are successful. Let there be no doubt about that.
Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again. Would he care to comment on the recent remarks made by the Minister for Small Firms, Trade and Industry? She told the House:
- "but it is essential that devolution should not undermine the UK's position in the wider world."--[Official Report, 3 December 1997; Vol. 302, c. 311-12.]
Mr. Griffiths: The WDA will not be inhibited in its role, and it will continue--in the catching phrase used by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State--to bat for Britain. Let us be clear that there will be no restrictions on the way in which the WDA works after an assembly is created.
Mr. Denzil Davies (Llanelli): Hon. Members are slightly intrigued by those concordats; undoubtedly we will see them in due course. Will there be a concordat between the Welsh Assembly and the Treasury? If there is such a concordat, will my hon. Friend give an undertaking that the Barnett formula will be written into it?
Mr. Griffiths: I am glad that my right hon. Friend raised that issue. [Hon. Members: "Oh?"] It is all part of the same thing. We need to be quite clear about the Barnett formula. Concordats agreed between the assembly and any Department will be matters for them to decide, and there will be no compulsion about them. It will be a question of seeking agreement, to ensure that the machinery of government continues working smoothly.
The explanatory and financial memorandum clearly explains that the Barnett formula will continue to be used. The hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) did not even understand how the Barnett formula works, or that--
[Interruption.] I remind the hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Woodward), who is shouting from a sedentary position--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I do not want the hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Woodward) to be shouting from a sedentary position; he must be quiet. He has made his speech.
Mr. Griffiths:
I thought that perhaps he was one of the wild men of Witney. Nevertheless, I remind him that, although the Barnett formula has not been enshrined in any legislation or mentioned in the explanatory memorandum of any Bill, it has managed to survive both Conservative and Labour Administrations. The fact that we have gone out of our way to explain it in this Bill's explanatory memorandum rather indicates how strongly we feel that it will continue to play its part in determining the block grant for Wales.
Mr. Ancram:
Does the Minister realise that the need for the Barnett formula, or a formula of words ensuring the Welsh people that their needs will be met, arises only because of devolution? Currently, there is no need for such an assurance. Why does the Bill therefore provide that expenditure available to the Welsh Assembly will be entirely at the discretion of the Secretary of State and no one else?
Mr. Griffiths:
The right hon. Gentleman is trying to make a mountain out of what is not even a molehill. The Government are clearly committed to the Barnett formula. If he is saying that the Conservative party and a possible future Conservative Government are not committed to the Barnett formula, I invite him to tell the House. The Labour Government are committed to the Barnett formula, and, as far as I am concerned, the Conservative party has not only been committed to it but will continue to be so committed. If Conservative Members are not committed to it, perhaps they will tell us why in the Bill's Committee stage. Let us be clear about the matter.
The hon. Member for Ynys Mon made some points on the executive and subject committees.
Mr. Ancram:
As the Minister knows, today a paper on the Barnett formula was placed in the Library. Will he tell the House the meaning of point 8(b), which states:
Mr. Ancram:
What does it mean?
Mr. Griffiths:
I will give you an example if you promise that, when I have answered, you will give your commitment to the Barnett formula--I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker--the right hon. Gentleman will give his commitment to the Barnett formula. If, for example,
Mr. Griffiths:
It might not be simple for the right hon. Gentleman, but it is quite simple. [Hon. Members: "Answer."] I have explained it to him, and that is all he needs--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. We must have good order in the House.
Mr. Griffiths:
The right hon. Gentleman--
Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield):
Who is paying the bill? The Minister should answer.
Mr. Griffiths:
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The right hon. Member for Devizes will have an opportunity to explore these issues in Committee.
Returning to the subject of the executive committee and the subject committees, it is not a traditional Cabinet model, but the Bill allows the assembly wide scope in its standing orders to delegate powers to the executive committee and to assembly secretaries. The Bill will allow account to be taken of issues arising from a more cabinet-style system of government.
Structural funds, although not on the face of the Bill, are a matter for the transfer order. We intend that the transfer order will transfer the Secretary of State's functions in respect of structural funds to the assembly. That means that the assembly will be able to determine, in agreement with the European Commission, what should be the priorities for the structural funds in Wales and how they will be administered. Assembly staff will be able to be part of UKREP--the United Kingdom Permanent Representative to the European Union. They are members of the home civil service and will be able to be seconded to UKREP--that is one of the benefits of maintaining a unified civil service.
On the question of the assembly and the exercise of the UK vote in the Council of Ministers, yes, it will be possible by agreement with the UK lead Minister on the subject. If there is a specific Welsh issue being debated in the Council of Ministers, the Welsh Assembly will be able to take part in the meeting in that way. That might cover matters such as minority languages. Executive members of the assembly will be able to take part, by agreement, in relevant negotiations on policy at all levels, up to and including the Council of Ministers. That is exactly the same as what is proposed for Scotland.
I hope that we will be able to address issues relating to female representation, which were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North (Ms Morgan).
Because of European law, that is not a straightforward matter, but at least three of the four significant parties in Wales are committed to increasing representation from the women of Wales, and we can only hope that Her Majesty's Opposition will take a similar view.
In the Bill, we are delivering on our manifesto commitment, on pledges in the White Paper and the referendum mandate. It is now time to look to the future. I thought that I detected a slight note of conciliation in the speech of the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) in that his party was now willing to take part in a constructive way in the debate on how the assembly should work. I hope that the Bill will ensure that there is a new voice and a new future for Wales. I commend the Bill to the House.
"Adjustments may be made"
to the Barnett formula when
"action taken by the Scottish or Welsh administrations in a devolved area has knock-on costs for the UK Government or vice versa"?
Mr. Griffiths:
Quite simply--perhaps the right hon. Gentleman did not realise this--the paper includes all the ground rules on which the Barnett formula operates.
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