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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): I should inform the House that Madam Speaker has selected the committal motion in the name of the Secretary of State for Wales.
10.29 pm
Mr. Win Griffiths: I beg to move,
- That (1) Clause Nos. 1, 4, 22, 58, 80 and 118 be committed to a Committee of the whole House;
(2) the remainder of the Bill be committed to a Standing Committee; and
(3) when the provisions of the Bill considered, respectively, by the Committee of the whole House and by the Standing Committee have been reported to the House, the Bill be proceeded with as if the Bill had been reported as a whole to the House from the Standing Committee.
We appreciate that a great number of technical matters were raised in yesterday's and today's debates. We believe that it is more appropriate that those matters are dealt with upstairs in Committee, where detailed scrutiny can be carried out. [Interruption.] Report and Third Reading will of course be taken on the Floor of the House.
None the less, the Government recognise the concerns raised by the official Opposition, and the motion responds to that. I regret, however, that it was not possible to reach agreement through the usual channels on a reasonable timetable to consider the Bill in its entirety on the Floor of the House--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. We must have silence in the Chamber.
Mr. Griffiths:
The motion will allow key clauses to be debated in a Committee of the whole House. Those will be clause 1, on the assembly itself, which the Opposition specifically requested to be taken on the Floor of the House; clause 4, on the membership of and election to the assembly; clause 22, on the functions to be exercised by the assembly; clause 58, which deals with internal working procedures of the assembly; clause 80, on the assembly's financial arrangements; and clause 118, on the reform of the Welsh Development Agency.
Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes):
This motion is quite simply a disgrace. I am not surprised that the monkey rather than the organ grinder has moved it. I remind the House that, yesterday, the Secretary of State asked me whether I would
The Government of Wales Bill is the first constitutional Bill ever to be divided in such a way. Such division is a very serious breach of constitutional convention. It casts aside the main check that we have in this Parliament on
constitutional legislation. Where other legislatures have weighted votes or referendums with thresholds, in this House we have always taken such Bills in Committee on the Floor of the House so that they could be properly scrutinised.
We are told that the only reason for moving the Bill Upstairs is administrative convenience. We should not use the procedures of the House for the administrative convenience of the Government, because the procedures of the House are here for the Members of the House.
The motion is also in breach of what the Secretary of State for Wales said in the press conference when he launched the Bill. He said:
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ron Davies):
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ancram:
I shall not give way, because I do not have enough time. The motion is a contempt of Parliament, because it covers only six clauses out of 149 clauses and 14 schedules. Enormous areas of the Bill will not be considered on the Floor of the House, although they are of significant interest to all hon. Members.
The nuts and bolts of how the proportional representation list system will work will not be considered on the Floor of the House, because clauses 5, 6 and 7 will not be considered on the Floor of the House. The right of the members of the assembly to set their salaries--a matter of considerable interest to Hon. Members--will not be considered on the Floor of the House.
Provisions relating to cross-border regulations, which will affect England, will not be considered on the Floor of the House. The provision to allow the assembly to apply European law in a different way to that in which it is applied in the rest of the United Kingdom will not be considered on the Floor of the House. Most extraordinary of all, the schedules contain provisions that will affect England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and they also will not be considered on the Floor of the House.
The motion may appear innocuous, and our time for debate is short, but the impact on how the House undertakes constitutional reform is enormous. We well know the contempt that the Secretary of State of Wales and the Government have for the House, and the motion is another example.
Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall)
rose--
Mr. Ancram:
I am not going to give way, because I have only 10 minutes.
I seriously ask all hon. Members who value the procedures of the House as the means of checking the executive and safeguarding our constitution to realise that tonight they are being asked to breach a convention that has served the House and our constitution well. We shall oppose the motion. It is an act of constitutional vandalism, and I ask all those who cherish our rights in the House to join me in dividing the House on the motion.
Question put, That the motion be made--
The House divided: Ayes 359, Noes 139.
"give an undertaking that, if the Government were not minded to have the Bill considered in Committee upstairs, he would agree with the Government, through the usual channels, to have an agreed timetable to take the matter entirely on the Floor of the House".--[Official Report, 8 December 1997; Vol. 302, c. 691.]
Today, I put forward a proposal for seven days in Committee on the Floor of the House and two days on Report--compared with 17 days in total on the equivalent Bill in 1978. That suggestion has just been brushed aside. The right hon. Gentleman never meant those weasel words yesterday, and that is why he has got his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to move the motion.
"it is, of course, also open to any MP to put forward changes to the Bill, and to have these explored in detail through open debate".
How will that occur if the Bill is considered in Committee Upstairs?
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