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Mr. Rowlands: I am following the hon. Gentleman's remarks closely. He has used as an illustration a Bill that is before the House and that will spawn orders even after the assembly has been established. What is his reading of the provisions in the Government of Wales Bill with regard to orders? How does he see it working with the orders that might come out of the School Standards and Framework Bill?

Mr. Dafis: I shall not hold a seminar on the contents of that Bill except to say that, in some clauses, the Secretary of State is given power to bring orders before the House. In those circumstances, the assembly could pursue its own priorities and not implement them as they are likely to be implemented in England. On Second Reading, the Secretary of State for Education and Employment told me clearly that any discretion that the Welsh assembly would have--he said that it would have considerable discretion--would be subject to the principles set out in the Bill.

The principles in the School Standards and Framework Bill are not all that different from the principles of the previous Government. The Bill is about selection and competition. However, in some clauses it is clear that the provisions of the Bill would not have to apply to Wales. The clauses on education action zones are one example. I

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do not believe that the Secretary of State for Wales would have the ability to opt out of selection, and schools in Wales would be empowered to set about the process--

The First Deputy Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is dwelling on selection in education for far too long. We are talking about amendments on legislative powers. Education could be one of those powers, but to dwell on education is to stray away from the amendment before us.

Mr. Dafis: I am grateful to you, Mr. Martin. You were one of my early instructors in the niceties of this place, and I certainly bend to your judgment. I have almost finished. I think that the point has been made.

5.30 pm

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West): The amendments cover a variety of subjects, and I should first like to consider whether the introduction of tax-varying powers would make sense or not. In the light of the referendum result, there is no question of supporting their introduction, because that referendum was fought on Government proposals that excluded such powers. Their subsequent introduction would be such a departure in principle from what was put before the people of Wales at that referendum that it would invalidate the legislation, because it would invalidate that very referendum. There is no question about that.

I should also like to refer briefly to the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands). My right hon. Friend was quite right to say that there is a dissonance between the Welsh and English versions of the title of the assembly, which is unacceptable. Either the Welsh should read "Cynulliad Cenedlaethol dros Gymru" or the English should read, "National Assembly of Wales". Perhaps it does not matter which version is used, but there should not be a difference between the Welsh and English versions. Someone has got something wrong, and we need to change either the Welsh or the English. That difference must be overcome.

I must admit that my instinct is to support the amendment proposed by my two distinguished Back-Bench colleagues. I do not believe that it makes a huge amount of difference, but I hope that the Government will show some flexibility on the matter.

Mr. Ron Davies: I am rather amused to hear my hon. Friend's reference to a dissonance between the English and Welsh language versions. I understand that the proposition that the assembly should be called the National Assembly for Wales was first put forward in the other place by the chairman of the Welsh Language Board, and that that suggestion commanded all-party support. There is a pretty strong body of support for that option.

Mr. Morgan: Pretty strong is as pretty strong does, but that is not a sufficient reason for a distinction between the Welsh and English versions. That needs to be sorted out. It is not a sufficient reason to deny the House the right to differ from someone even as distinguished as the former hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, Dafydd

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Elis-Thomas. We should make our own minds up about it, and if we differ from a distinguished Member of the House of Lords and the chairman of the Welsh Language Board, so be it.

I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is not suggesting that that individual, as chairman of the Welsh Language Board, approved the translation into the Welsh, which is incorrect--it is more likely that an error has been made in the English version.

Mr. Davies: I am not suggesting that. I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend's argument. I suggest that the other place will want to reflect on its original debate and on the debate in the House about the dissonance between the English and Welsh language versions and whether that is acceptable.

Mr. Morgan: Let me put it more frankly, so that the other place can reflect upon it more honestly--the chairman of the Welsh Language Board was talking rubbish.

It is clear that the introduction of tax-varying powers is a no-no following the referendum. That would defraud the people of Wales, and render the entire referendum campaign nonsense. Those of us who slogged our guts out during that campaign would not like to think that we would have to do it all again to seek approval for the assembly to have tax-varying powers. That option is absolutely out for all of us.

The question of law-making powers is slightly different, because of the possibility that the Bill offers a law-making element in a Henry VIII clause which is equivalent to primary legislative powers. That possibility has accounted for the bulk of our discussions since 3.40 pm. I believe that the Secretary of State has referred to that possibility in some of his interventions. We are referring to the power either to block or to initiate legislation.

A lengthy discussion has been held between my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney and Liberal Democrat and Plaid Cymru Members about whether the power to block legislation is contained in the Bill. That power could be construed as equivalent to being able to block primary legislation from the House. The Secretary of State placed more emphasis on the ability to be creative and the power of the assembly to initiate the equivalent of primary legislative powers through a Henry VIII clause.

I am not a parliamentary draftsman, so it is difficult for me to define exactly where that power appears in the Bill. Somewhere between clauses 29 and 41 there appears to be an opening provided by such a Henry VIII clause. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State appears to have made it clear in his interventions that such a possibility exists. Although that power would be under a secondary legislative one, in certain minor areas it would be equivalent to primary legislative powers. In the end, it does not matter whether that power is described as primary or secondary: it is the power itself that is of interest to people.

It seems that it is my right hon. Friend's intention that the assembly should have the power to initiate legislation. Whether the assembly would have the power to block

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adverse legislation which is passed by a Government of a political party of a different colour from that representing the majority in the Welsh assembly needs to be clarified, either when a Minister responds to the debate or at a later stage in our deliberations. It would be preferable if one of my right hon. Friend's colleagues sought to answer that question in the response to the debate.

We are satisfied that it is my right hon. Friend's intention that the assembly should have the power to initiate. That important power to an extent answers some of the objections and whinges expressed by the president of Plaid Cymru, the right hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), who moved amendment No. 52. We would be grateful for some further elucidation of the possible powers to block legislation and where that authority rests in the Bill. There has been a great deal of talk about that this afternoon.

I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) about the name of the proposed Parliament. What does one call a legislature, debating chamber or body? There is a case for allowing the assembly to make its own choice. I disagree with the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans), who said that it will be known as the Welsh assembly. He is trying to predict the future, which is difficult, but the principle behind his remarks is right.

We should try to fit in with what the people of Wales call that Parliament. We should not be too prescriptive. If we offered the Welsh assembly the freedom to decide its name, would it be terribly pompous and try to inflate its importance, or it would follow what the man or woman in the street called it anyway?

The problem with the name "Welsh assembly" and the objection to it which arose during the referendum campaign is that the word "Welsh" has two meanings. One means the Welsh language, and the other that it is of Wales. It is one of those things that we cannot get away from.

One of the main purposes of changing from the name Welsh assembly to National Assembly either of or for Wales is to clear up the confusion that exists in some people's minds. They ask whether, if one calls it the Welsh assembly, that means that one must be able to speak Welsh to take part in its proceedings. It is a big problem, which we met during the referendum. I believe that the alternative title of National Assembly gets around it, although I prefer National Assembly of Wales to National Assembly for Wales.

Is there a further advantage in trying to give the assembly a bit of local colour by encouraging the use of the word senedd? The hon. Member for Ribble Valley is incorrect to say that that word is used only as a direct translation of the Anglo-French word Parliament. I must tell him that, until the first world war, the word senedd was not used very much, and the Welsh word for Parliament was Parlmant, with an "a" not an "e" and without anything between the "l" and "m". It was the Welsh version of the Norman French instead of the English version of Norman French. The use of the word senedd started to gain a grip only after the first world war.

The hon. Member for Ribble Valley has already been told, quite correctly, by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis) that "senedd" is a translation of senatus. It may have a bit of the word "synod" in it as well. It is confusing for us all, but if it was a direct translation from

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senatus I am told that it should be spelt senawd, not senedd. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Ceredigion can confirm that, but perhaps it comes from the Greek word "synod", which has an entirely different meaning, but which, fortunately, tends to mean the same kind of thing--a debating body.

It is all very confusing, but the names of Parliaments are always confusing. I am afraid that my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West is wrong. The BBC always refers to the Japanese Diet, but that word is unknown in Japan. The Japanese word for its Parliament is Kokkai. The BBC refers to it as the Diet perhaps because it thinks that the Japanese word is open to misinterpretation. What does Diet mean? It means a body that meets for one day.

The lesson we must learn is that there is never an accurate translation of the names for assemblies, Parliaments, councils, diets, folketings, sejms, majlises, or any word for Parliament. Any name must develop in a way that is natural and meets with the approval of the people whom that body is trying to serve. That is the important point--the name should evolve naturally, but we are trying to predict what will evolve naturally in Wales.

Will the people of Wales prefer to use a Welsh- language but easy-to-pronounce term like "senedd", or will they prefer a word like "assembly"? Do they like the Welsh word "cynulliad"? I do not think they do: the word cynulliad is rather complicated, as if one had chewed a dictionary for breakfast. Many people do not like it, and will probably never use it, so we need a simpler Welsh version.

That is the main reason for looking for something else. "Cymanfa" has associations with singing in chapel, but it is probably a better translation of assembly than cynulliad. I admit that I have never liked the word cynulliad; I do not think the word trips happily off the tongue even of Welsh speakers, let alone those who are learning Welsh or who have no Welsh at all. We must try to evolve words--possibly leaving the matter to the assembly itself--which trip naturally off the tongue of the people of Wales and which indicate the affection and respect in which the body is held by the people of Wales.

The question whether we should aim at a full primary legislative body is ruled out by the terms of the referendum, but--provided the Secretary of State confirms that there is a clear intent to have a Henry VIII power in the legislation--there is nothing to stop the assembly reforming public bodies in Wales and dealing with other matters. The House is always bored when dealing with such matters--we remember the farcical proceedings over the reform of Welsh local government and the Welsh Language Act 1993--and, in future, Parliament will generally expect the Welsh assembly to deal with them.

In future, if legislation of a primary, secondary or hybrid nature is required, hon. Members here would prefer not to slog away until 10 pm on matters that should be dealt with by the Welsh assembly. That is the way the two bodies will come to work together naturally. I do not see any problem with allowing a matter that was in the White Paper and therefore was there when the people of Wales voted in the referendum to be expanded, but we cannot introduce something completely new, such as tax-varying powers, which were clearly excluded when the proposition was put to the people of Wales.

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We must also be aware that, if the Welsh assembly is to participate in certain supranational bodies, such as the council of the isles mooted by the Government--depending on whether that idea comes off as part of the Northern Ireland peace process, what the council can do and the right to participate being granted--it may be that we will need to consider whether any adaptation of the legislative powers referred to in the Bill is necessary in order to permit the Welsh assembly to play the part intended for it in that council.

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