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8.30 pm
Mr. McGrady: An explanation is required of my amendment No. 3 to clause 7, since the word "procession" appears twice in line 14. The amendment applies to the second "procession": in other words, it would delete subsection (6)(e), which deals with a preference--or an intention to give preference--to processions that are customarily held along a particular route. Subsection (6) states that the guidelines of the commission shall in particular have regard to five matters, including whether a procession is customarily held along a route.
The words "customarily held" mean traditional. It will be difficult for the commission or anyone else to define traditionality. In Committee, the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) gave a perfect example of the problem of traditionality. He said that the structure of the Orange Order was such that demonstrations could move around in different areas in different years. In one extreme case, a traditional parade was held every 41 or 47 years--I am not sure which. Therefore, traditionality could mean intervals of 40 or more years. No reasonable person would accept that something which has not taken place for the best part of two generations could genuinely be deemed traditional.
I hasten to add that it is desirable that as many parades as possible, excluding those which impinge on the rights of others or cause distress or public disorder, should be allowed. There is no problem about that. But traditionality should not be one of the major bases on which a decision is made.
For example, in an area which I prefer not to name in case it exacerbates the situation, a parade was taking place on several Friday nights, as they are wont to do, until 11 pm or 12 pm, and it went into a mixed estate. There were some protests, but the police, in their wisdom, said that the parade could go ahead because it was traditional. The traditional parade to which they were referring was an extension of a parade into a new housing estate where the roads were not even made up. That parade had nothing to do with traditionality. The houses had not been there 24 months before. That was about extending the dominance of the traditional parade into a new community which happened to be particularly diverse.
I shall not press the amendment to a vote, but I hope that the Minister will say that, when the guidelines are being drawn up or reviewed, that element of traditionality will not be a major or primary factor in the decision-making process. As I have said, over four decades, the topography, demography and social structure of any given area can change. Traditionality is not only a bad basis in practice on which to make a decision but a difficult basis in terms of interpretation.
Mr. Thompson:
If the hon. Gentleman were a member of such organisations, he would realise how a traditional
Mr. McGrady:
The hon. Gentleman raises the question of the right to march. In Committee, the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), who sat on the same side of the Committee as the hon. Gentleman, and who I understand is a learned gentleman, said that he thought that, under English law, there was no right to parade, simply an entitlement under the common law to do that which is not forbidden. There is no automatic right to march--a concept which Ulster Unionist Members have consistently put across. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Beaconsfield is right in his semi-judicial assessment of the situation, but I put it forward for what it is worth.
My amendment simply asks that traditionality is not taken literally but is made subject to other matters which must impinge on any decision making. To have it as a primary and particular concern gives it a prominence which, owing to the difficulty of interpretation and explanation, could give it an undue influence in the decision making of the commission, or of the police, who deal with protest meetings rather than parades.
Mr. William Ross:
I support new clause 1. It is very reasonable and will be found to be in keeping with the spirit and the letter of the Human Rights Bill which will complete its passage in the other place tomorrow and then come to this House for debate and amendment.
My hon. Friend the Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson) read out the clear judgments of the European Court, which will override domestic law. We in the Ulster Unionist party have always opposed the concept of European law, but if the House decides to implement it, it will have to live by it. I suspect that the first Orange procession that is blocked will see the Government in court, and that will not be in the European Court, but in the domestic courts. If my understanding is correct, once the Government are found guilty, as they will be, they will find themselves having to pass through the House forthwith an Order in Council implementing the European law in that regard. If the Government are sensible enough to accept my hon. Friend's proposals and live by them, I suspect that they will never be in that unhappy position. New clause 1 is very important. It is the first of a number that my hon. Friend has tabled on the issue, and no doubt he will return later this evening to some of the matters he has raised.
New clause 1(1)(a) would make an issue of the conduct of those in the procession. It is a reasonable provision, and I believe that we would all like to see it included in the Bill. If people took part in a parade, they would have to behave themselves. No one in a loyalist order or organisation, such as the Ancient Order of Hibernians, would behave in the way described in the new clause. Given that fact, the law-abiding, decent elements of Northern Ireland society could live with and, indeed, would welcome the new clause.
New clause 1(1)(b) is an equally reasonable provision and would provide an excellent back-up to the Government's new clause 3, which the House has just accepted. Ministers should have the wit to welcome the sensible proposals in new clause 1. They are a much simpler statement of what is needed to control processions in Northern Ireland and could be implemented easily by the police. The new clause makes it plain that, if people do not behave when they are on procession, that will be a good reason for ensuring that they do not return.
The Bill as it stands is far too complex. It introduces elements that, as my hon. Friend the Member for West Tyrone vividly illustrated, will not stand up when the European human rights law is applied in the United Kingdom. Under the European laws, people will have the right to process, and to police and military protection when they do so. That is the point that I made in Committee: we will eventually reach a situation in which everyone will have the right to march more or less at will and to be protected while doing so.
The Government should pause and think again about the consequences of the Bill. They should consider ways in which it could be improved and made acceptable and compatible with European law. The Government could pre-empt a conflict with European law, and that would be a happy outcome of our proceedings. As the Bill stands, the Government will have to reconsider it in a year or so.
I am happy to support the proposals of my hon. Friend the Member for West Tyrone, and I hope that they find favour with the Minister. If the Minister thinks carefully about the new clause, he will realise that it is sensible and much superior to the proposals in the Bill. I hope that the Government will accept the new clause.
Rev. Ian Paisley:
I rise to support new clause 1, tabled by the hon. Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson). The Government cannot take an a la carte approach to Europe. They must either accept all that Europe says or none of it. I am not a fan of Europe, but I believe that the Government will be hoist by their own petard when the Bill to incorporate European civil rights provisions receives Royal Assent. What will happen then?
I do not agree with the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) that the British people have no right to process. Everybody knows that common law gives people that right, and that has been argued in the courts of this land. This is not the first time that processions have been in the political arena in Ireland--or in England, especially Liverpool. It can be seen from the past that the right to march has been treated in the same way as the right to assemble and the right to free speech.
We are discussing public order issues tonight. I have already said this evening--I shall repeat the point--that the Government should have considered the public order order and dealt with the provisions in it that gave a lever to those who wanted to disrupt processions, and to disrupt them violently.
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