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9 pm
I say to the people of Northern Ireland and to the House that there are some things that we have to thole, and everyone in Northern Ireland has to thole processions. Those who do not agree with them need not look at them. Some processions last for only a few minutes. I am told that the Drumcree parade takes nine minutes to go along that stretch of road. If we cannot have tolerance for nine minutes, we will never have the tolerance to live together and take the actions that people say we should take together. We should look carefully at the Bill. I hope that the Government appreciate the force of the new clause.
Mr. Öpik:
Estonia does not have many rules about processions, but it had sectarian problems. There was tension between the Russian and Estonian communities, and it was a miracle that it had not erupted into violence. As far as I can tell, when people from one side or the other wanted to process, they did it, made their point and that was it. My guess is that, if we transposed the entire legislation on processions in Northern Ireland to Estonia, it would not make a blind bit of difference to how people there go about their business. The same is probably true of Northern Ireland.
No matter how much legislation we produce on processions in Northern Ireland, the situation will not change much. The reason for that--as I listen to the debate I become even more persuaded of it--is that the House is trying to legislate for human nature. The more we try to legislate for circumstances and difficulties, the more it becomes a virtual certainty that those who want to will find creative solutions to enable them to circumvent the legislation.
We must be realistic. The concerns that have been expressed in the debate simply reflect the degree to which the debate is not about getting the right legislation but about getting the right attitudes, and such attitudes can come only from the participants. The hon. Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson) made an interesting comment about freedoms and civil liberties. I have some sympathy with his proposition. His most striking comment related to clause 7(6)(c), which states that the commission should consider
The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) said that, if the legislation is passed in the form that the Government want, it might have to come to the House
again next year for further improvement. It may have to come back for ever if we think that legislation will resolve the problems. We could have this debate every year if we think that debate will resolve problems. I was going to make some points on traditionality, but I think that they will come up when we discuss the next group of amendments, if we get to it.
As a result of the points that I have made, I ask the hon. Member for West Tyrone to explain why he feels that his proposals will make the situation better in Northern Ireland. The reason I ask that question was summarised by the hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley), who said that the problems will not end--by implication, with the passage of the Bill. He is right, because it has to do with attitude.
Therefore, my question is: why is the hon. Member for West Tyrone confident that his proposals, with which, as I say, I have quite a lot of sympathy, will improve the difficult situation with regard to processions in Northern Ireland? If he can provide a convincing explanation to that, he will have gone a long way to explaining how we can begin to change attitudes in Northern Ireland, to remove the need for such complex legislation in the first place. However, I am sceptical.
Mr. William Ross:
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will have noticed that, in this group of amendments, there are two in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson) and one in the name of the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady). However, they are very different. Do you intend to allow separate Divisions on those two sets of propositions?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
I think that the answer to that is no.
Mr. Worthington:
I understand the thinking behind the amendments of the hon. Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson), but, given the Government's overall policy in this area, in effect, they are, as he knows, wrecking amendments. We shall therefore resist them.
The hon. Gentleman's whole case was based on the European convention on human rights, which I am pleased to hear he has discovered because it was ratified in 1950--about 48 years ago. Since a few years after that, any British citizen has had the right to go to the European Court of Human Rights and seek to have the rights in the convention brought into effect.
Since that time, it has been possible for any Unionist or Orangeman, when there have been march restrictions that they feel contravene the convention, to go to the European Court in Strasbourg and say, "We believe that the restrictions that were imposed by the Secretary of State or by the Chief Constable were in contravention of the convention." That right has been there all those years and, to the best of my knowledge, it has never been used by people of the persuasion of the hon. Member for West Tyrone.
Mr. Thompson:
I thank the Minister for what he says, but I do not need a lesson on the convention. The point is that it is difficult to get redress in Strasbourg before the police re-route a parade, especially if they do so two hours before it is due to take place. The fact that someone can
Mr. Worthington:
The major reason why we are introducing the Human Rights Bill in the Lords is to make it easier for British citizens to get redress through the British courts, rather than to go to Strasbourg, but nothing in this Bill contravenes the rights of British citizens. There are no restrictions in the Bill. It introduces a different way of administering marches. As the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik) has said, whether there are more marches and parades or fewer marches and parades will depend on people's attitudes.
Nothing in the legislation is restrictionist or anti-restrictionist. It simply sets out a new framework because we and the North committee judged that the previous framework, which included the role of the police and other interested parties, was unsatisfactory. Part of the framework, to which the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) objects, allows for "traditionality" to be taken into consideration. That in no way alters our relationship with the European convention on human rights. That convention is not changed, and nor is our interpretation of it. At every stage, the hon. Member for West Tyrone has been free to go to Strasbourg, and he will be free to do so in future.
Obviously, we have taken legal advice--I should be interested to know whether the hon. Member for West Tyrone has done so--and we are confident that nothing in the Bill is contrary to the ECHR. It does not restrict the right to march. It simply sets out a different framework for the monitoring of marches. Whether it is more restrictionist or not will depend on the commission, just as in the past it depended on the Chief Constable or the Secretary of State at the time.
Mr. Thompson:
If the Bill is so compatible with the European convention on human rights, why do not the Government publish a document explaining where it conforms to the convention, as will be required under the Human Rights Bill which is now going through the other place and which will eventually come to this place? If the Bill does not contravene the convention, why have the Government not published such a document?
Mr. Worthington:
The hon. Gentleman initially asked for a statement, which I am making, to the effect that the Bill does not contravene the convention. We feel no need to do as the hon. Gentleman suggests, because the Bill does not restrict the right to parade. It sets out a different framework for the decisions on parades and the monitoring of competing rights. The North report referred to those competing rights--the right to parade and the right to protest.
There has never, in any sphere, been an absolute right to do anything. What exists is a general principle that has to be taken into account and given due weight. If one took one's rights to the absurd limit and said that they were unfettered rights, it would make life intolerable for other people. Everyone knows that.
Mr. Öpik:
I have just two quick questions for the Minister. First, does he agree that it is rather nonsensical
"any impact which the procession may have on relationships within the community".
That is close to the question whether one should allow people to make statements with which one does not agree. We were taught in philosophy the saying
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
There is a danger of illiberality, of taking away that fundamental right to self-expression. However, I am not at all clear why the proposals by the hon. Member for West Tyrone would alleviate the danger of illiberal restrictions. Unreasonable people will behave unreasonably, and no matter how much we legislate, that will continue.
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