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Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: New clause 4--Secretary of State's powers to prohibit non-traditional public processions.--
'If, in the case of any proposed non-traditional public procession, the Secretary of State is of the opinion that, having regard to--
(a) any serious public disorder or serious damage to property which may result from the procession;
(b) any serious disruption to the life of the community which the procession may cause;
(c) any serious impact which the procession may have on relationships within the community; and
(d) any undue demands which the procession may cause to be made on the police or military forces;
it is necessary in the public interest to do so, he may by order prohibit the holding of that procession.'.
Amendment No. 10, in clause 7, page 4, line 26, at end insert 'new'.
Amendment No. 14, in clause 10, page 6, line 15, leave out from beginning to end of line 33 on page 7.
Amendment No. 11, in page 6, line 16, after 'proposed', insert 'new'.
Amendment No. 12, in clause 16, page 11, line 2, after 'conveyances', insert
Amendment No. 41, in page 11, line 2, after 'conveyances', insert
Mr. Thompson:
The new clause is a replacement provision for clause 10, which deals with the Secretary of State's powers in relation to parades. It is--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. There are numerous conversations taking place in the Chamber. I ask right hon. and hon. Members to continue their conversations outside the Chamber or to take their seats.
Mr. Thompson:
As I was saying, Mr. Deputy Speaker, clause 10 relates to the powers of the Secretary of State in relation to public processions. In the existing clause the Secretary of State has been given extreme powers to enable her or him to ban a single parade or a group of parades, and to impose a ban for a certain period. The criteria which the Secretary of State can use to ban parades are much wider than they had been previously. In other words, the Secretary of State can consider
We believe that the powers that the clause gives to the Secretary of State are, to some extent, dictatorial. They are extensive, and we believe that they are not completely necessary. That is why I have tabled the new clause. If accepted, it would restore, to some extent, the powers of the Secretary of State as they exist under the 1987 measure.
Mr. William Ross:
Will it be possible, Mr. Lord, to vote separately on new clause 4 and some of the amendments? As you see, new clause 4 was tabled by me, whereas new clause 2 was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for West Tyrone (Mr. Thompson). He has explained to the House the reasoning behind his new clause, which is quite different from mine.
New clause 4 attempts to separate out non-traditional public processions, and I have kindly provided two possible ways of determining what a non-traditional or a new public procession is. I prefer amendment No. 41, which arose as a result of further information that came to light a day or so after amendment No. 12 had been tabled.
The last words of amendment No. 12,
That takes care of the cycle of events run by the Orange institution in various parts of the Province, and by other organisations, such as the Black institution, the Apprentice Boys, whose processions are few in number, and the Ancient Order of Hibernians. There are other organisations such as the Foresters that may follow the same general principles, although I cannot speak for them. For that reason, I am especially anxious that the amendment should be considered as a separate item from my hon. Friend's new clause 2.
My hon. Friends intended new clause 1 to apply to all processions. New clause 4 is analogous, as it covers new or non-traditional processions. It is a difficult issue that has not been properly addressed, and this is a way in which it could be addressed.
The Minister was not wholly convinced by what we said about the issue in Committee, and he was rather scathing about the fact that some of our amendments did
not advance the case. Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 introduce the concept that the Secretary of State should look only at new processions. I believe that new processions should be subject to more scrutiny than the long-standing processions that have been held for many years without causing any problems.
At the weekend, I spoke to a senior police officer in my constituency who pointed out that bands that practise marching on the road are legally required to submit 11/1 forms. Some bands do that, but some do not. The 11/1 form provides protection for the bands, but they do not do any harm, and usually march on roads near the halls where they train. There is nothing worse than seeing marching bands whose members appear to have three left feet. We want to teach our band members to march properly, and we cannot do that in a hall: bands must practise on the road, with band members carrying their instruments and playing as they march.
Under the existing legislation, every band training session is a procession. Therefore, band sessions account for many of the so-called processions and parades that occur every year. Some bands never bother to apply for 11/1 forms, but all bands will have to do that when this legislation starts to bite. Instead of 3,000 processions, we shall be presented with a grossly inflated figure that does not reflect what is happening on the ground. [Interruption.]
The Government should consider that point. If every band--some of which hold training sessions at fairly short notice--must submit an 11/1 form to the police, it will not be long before--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. There are numerous conversations going on in the Chamber. I remind hon. Members that they should be listening to the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross), who is on his feet.
Mr. Ross:
We are well aware that hon. Members often do not listen to us. On the many occasions that they have not listened to us, they have seen the legislation end in tears--which is what will happen in this case. I hope that hon. Members will learn to listen to us before we are much older and the situation has worsened.
The proper legal process regarding processions is not fully complied with at present: bands train by simply marching down the road. If every band must submit an 11/1 form for every training session--and there will be hundreds every week--it will not be long before the police commissioner will be able to paper not only his office but police headquarters with 11/1 forms.
That is only one nonsensical aspect of the Bill. Thousands of processions of various types are held every year in Northern Ireland without the slightest sign of trouble. Therefore, I believe that only new processions should come within the ambit of the legislation. We require the definition of a new procession--or perhaps "non-traditional" procession is a better term. That is why we have tabled our amendments.
As I have said, amendments Nos. 12 and 41 offer the Minister two versions of the same thing--so he can choose whichever he wants. I hope that he will choose one of them, and act upon it. New clause 4 addresses the concept of non-traditional public processions so that the Secretary of State may take action in that regard.
The reason I say that the Secretary of State can take action is that these processions will arise as a result of Sinn Fein-IRA trying to step up the pressure in the coming weeks and months. They will get on the bandwagon too, so action will need to be taken swiftly.
'"new public procession" means a procession which has not been held for more than 10 years over the route proposed except where it is held as part of a long route of processions.'.
'"non traditional public procession" means a procession which has been held for less than 10 successive years on the route proposed except where it takes place as part of a rota of processions which cover a number of different routes.'.
"any serious impact which such processions may have on relationships within the community"
and
"any undue demands which such procession may cause to be made on the police or military".
The Secretary of State can proceed if in her or his opinion action should be taken. Under the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987, the powers of the Secretary of State are not so extensive. Under that
provision, a Secretary of State could not ban a single parade. He or she could do that only, mainly, at the request of the chief of police. That being so, the Secretary of State was somewhat limited. There has been only one occasion under the 1987 order where a Secretary of State has so acted.
"a long route of processions",
contain a typographical error, and should read
"a long rota of processions".
It is intended to define a new parade as one that has simply been created, whereas a traditional parade is one that has been held for more than 10 successive years, except where it was held as one of a long rota of processions over different routes.
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