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Mr. Ingram: I was going to come to that aspect of new clause 2. I shall discuss the basis of the powers that now exist, because there are inherent contradictions between the hon. Gentleman's new clause and that of the hon. Member for East Londonderry. It might be worth setting out the detail of what they are trying to achieve in them.
I have dealt with the consultation aspect, but new clause 2 would also restrict the basis on which the Secretary of State could ban processions to factors that are exclusively public order related. That ignores the fundamental recommendation of the North report, that the factors that should be taken into account in imposing both conditions and bans should be expanded to cover the wider impact that the parade may have on relationships within the community.
The Government are completely committed to that core recommendation of the North report. We would not have established the commission in the first place had we believed that the criteria in the public order order were adequate. We set up the commission not as a snub to the RUC, but because we believed that the RUC is put in a difficult position under the current legislation, and that it would not be best placed to judge the community relations issues that the commission will need to assess.
As well as differing from the existing powers in the public order order, new clause 2 is also very different from clause 10 of the Bill. Specifically, it was suggested in Committee that the power to ban individual parades by the Secretary of State was wrong-headed and vulnerable to political interference. Accordingly, new clause 2 retains only the power to ban all parades or parades in specified classes, as in the existing public order order.
I must admit that I found that argument and that reasoning hard to understand in Committee, and I have not found anything to dissuade me from that impression. The power to ban all parades in a given area over a period or to ban whole classes of parades seems to me to be more extensive than the power to ban individual parades.
Mr. Thompson
indicated dissent.
Mr. Ingram:
The hon. Gentleman is shaking his head. We are trying to introduce some form of proportionality into the banning powers. The power to ban in certain areas or to ban certain classes of parade could have been drafted in such a way as to affect only one particular parade if the Secretary of State had been so minded.
The suggestion that giving a specific power to ban individual parades somehow extends the Secretary of State's power is entirely misplaced. I note that new clause 4, tabled by the hon. Member for East Londonderry, would give the Secretary of State the power to ban only individual parades, rather than whole categories. Presumably, he does not believe that the power is as draconian as the hon. Member for West Tyrone seems to think. That is where the contradiction between the two new clauses comes into play.
The provisions of new clause 4 are totally incompatible with those of new clause 2. I find it rather strange that the hon. Members do not seem to be speaking with one voice on this aspect of the legislation. It is perhaps a case of Unionism disunited.
The hon. Member for East Londonderry's new clause 4 seeks to exempt traditional parades from the banning power. That was discussed in detail in Committee, and has been discussed in passing tonight. It would be wrong to go over that ground again: it was given an extensive airing in Committee, and I do not think that much is to be gained from covering it again.
I do not think that it would be acceptable to the European Court of Human Rights or responsible on the part of Government to treat parades radically differently, as suggested. We all know that some serious trouble has been associated with what are undoubtedly traditional parades. It would be wrong to prejudge the issue or the merit of those parades. Stripping the Secretary of State of her last resort power to ban such parades would be irresponsible, and contrary to the recommendation of the North report.
The banning power has been used very sparingly in the past: in fact, only once under the 1987 order. We expect that to remain the case in the future. We are determined that, should it ever be necessary to use the power, the Secretary of State should impose the minimum possible restriction on these important civil liberties. An ascending scale of banning powers from individual parades, to classes of parades and to all parades seems sensible in that context. That is what I mean by the proportionality principles laid down in clause 10.
The two new clauses are substantial in their own right.
Mr. William Ross:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ingram:
I am coming to a conclusion. The hon. Gentleman had a fair go at explaining his position.
The way in which clause 10 proposes to deal with banning powers is clearly consistent with the North report. It is important that the range of factors that must be taken into account remain in the Bill; I do not think that any change would improve it.
Mr. Thompson:
The Minister spoke at some length. The argument that allowing the Secretary of State to ban a single parade does not represent a new power is Machiavellian: if the Secretary of State did not have the power before and now has it, it must be an additional power.
Mr. Ingram:
I think I said that it was an additional power.
Can the hon. Gentleman tell me why he resists the concept of a proportionate approach to the banning power, starting with single parades and proceeding to clashes and worse?
Mr. Thompson:
If the Minister looks at the legislation applying to England and Wales--and, indeed, the White Paper that dealt with the legislation relating to the 1987 order--he will find that that was one of the suggestions turned down by the eminent people who were members of a commission on public order. It was turned down because it meant that the then Secretary of State would leave himself wide open to a charge of political intervention--to the charge that he was banning a parade only on the basis of political considerations.
No doubt any future Secretary of State for Northern Ireland who bans a single parade can be well assured of being open to the charge that he did it for political reasons. That is why the suggestion was rejected in England and Wales, and that is why it has never been part of the legislation of those countries--or, indeed, Northern Ireland. Clause 10 brings the power to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and, moreover, widens the criteria enabling her to take such action. The North report did not recommend giving the power to the Secretary of State; it recommended that no change should be made, other than the introduction of the additional criteria for the judgment of parades.
Under the clause, the Secretary of State can ban a parade without consulting the Chief Constable. It is necessary for her to consult the Chief Constable only "where practicable". A Secretary of State with a certain whim and fancy could, if he or she did not approve of a parade, ban that parade. That is an exact interpretation of
the clause. My new clause would prevent that: it would keep the Secretary of State's powers in line with those that exist here in London.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 11, Noes 267.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Ingram:
I beg to move amendment No. 16, in page 1, line 21, leave out 'mediate, or'.
AYES
Beggs, Roy
Forsythe, Clifford
Hunter, Andrew
McCartney, Robert (N Down)
Paisley, Rev Ian
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangford)
Thompson, William
Trimble, Rt Hon David
Walker, Cecil
Mr. Ken Maginnis and
Rev. Martin Smyth.
NOES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Ballard, Mrs Jackie
Barnes, Harry
Begg, Miss Anne
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Browne, Desmond
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burstow, Paul
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Church, Ms Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fatchett, Derek
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Grant, Bernie
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Grogan, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hanson, David
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Home Robertson, John
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Lidington, David
Livsey, Richard
Lock, David
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McCartney, Ian (Makerfield)
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McGrady, Eddie
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marek, Dr John
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mountford, Kali
Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Eddie
Olner, Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Rammell, Bill
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Rendel, David
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Sanders, Adrian
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stott, Roger
Stringer, Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr Rudi
Watts, David
Webb, Steve
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Willis, Phil
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wise, Audrey
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Mr. David Jamieson and
Mr. Kevin Hughes.
Amendment made: No. 15, in page 1, line 16, at end insert 'and protest meetings'.--[Mr. Ingram.]
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