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' "protest meeting" means an open-air public meeting (within the meaning of the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987)--
(a) which is, or is to be, held--
(i) at a place which is on or in the vicinity of the route or proposed route of a public procession; and
(ii) at or about the same time as the procession is being or is to be held; and
(b) the purpose (or one of the purposes) of which is to demonstrate opposition to the holding of that procession on that route or proposed route;'
No. 25, in page 11, line 2, at end insert--
Mr. William Ross:
I beg to move amendment No. 39, in page 12, line 13, leave out 'more' and insert 'less than'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendment No. 27.
Amendment No. 40, in page 12, line 34, at end insert--
Government amendment No. 28.
Amendment No. 7, in page 12, line 40, at end insert
Mr. Ross:
This is another amendment in which there is a typographical error. It should read "less", not "less than". We are trying to make improvements to the schedule, which at present states that there should be
The amendment had the support of the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) who is not in his place at present. We believe that there is a good case for having more than six other members. We are asking the Government to remove the restriction to six other members and to leave open the possibility of there being more.
Government amendment No. 27 states:
The Government have accepted the case that we made in Committee, and they accept the case that I am trying to make in the amendment, so I see no good reason why the Minister should not immediately accept the amendment. We could then all go home, after another couple of hours on Third Reading.
That is why I have tabled amendment No. 40, which states:
I realise that that would rule out Mr. Sean Farren, Mrs. Rogers and several other leading members of the Social Democratic and Labour party who were born in the Irish Republic, who have never relinquished their citizenship of that country and who undoubtedly travel on Irish passports, and thus would not be acceptable to the Unionist population of Northern Ireland as representing their best interests or being fair and unbiased in their judgment. I do not see why the Government should not accept this very reasonable amendment.
The hon. Member for South Down has tabled an amendment regarding the quorum, which has appeared on the amendment paper before. The Government have tried to accommodate him, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not withdraw his amendment. My party supported him strongly in Committee, and we still believe that what he proposes is a good idea. That view is also clearly shared by the Government, who have come part of the way to meet him. If the hon. Gentleman cares to put his amendment to the test tonight, we shall be happy to support him.
The Government would usually jump at an opportunity to secure full cross-community, cross-religious and cross-party support. As the Unionist party, the Democratic Unionist party and our colleague the hon. and learned Member for North Down (Mr. McCartney)--who has apparently departed the Chamber--are in favour of this sensible, far-reaching amendment, why does the Minister not stand up immediately and say that the Government will accept it?
Hon. Members will appreciate that this is a very important group of amendments that tests the Government's intention to be fair and to ensure that the membership of the commission reflects the whole Northern Ireland community and the various interests within it. The commission should comprise more members than the legislation states at present, and it may be enlarged by amendment No. 39. The Minister must realise that Government amendment No. 27 concerning membership is defective and that ours is much better. The hon. Member for South Down would no doubt agree that his amendment is also far better than the Government's puny effort. We therefore have before us three amendments that could be accepted happily by the whole House.
Mr. McGrady:
Our debate on my amendment No. 7 should be the least emotive that we have this evening, or this morning, in that it relates purely to an appreciation of numeracy. I thought that my amendment in Committee,
I cannot conceive of anybody designing the Government's amendment. Government amendment No. 28 says that, where the commission consists of seven members, the quorum shall be four; and where the commission consists of six, the quorum shall be three. In other words, a decision could be made with three present out of six, and presumably a majority of three is two, so two out of six could make a decision. That is bad.
The membership of the commission is not defined in the Act. I think that it is a maximum of seven--the chairman and six possible other members. To go on down the list, where there are five, four or three members of the commission, the quorum shall be two. That is a recipe for bad decision making in any society, be it a local football club, the women's institute, or wherever. There is no logic in the Government's amendment.
I should not have minded my amendment being doctored a little, but I cannot understand why the Government have substituted their amendment for my much more logical proposal. It is self-evident that a commission with a membership of four or five should not have a quorum of two, and that a commission of six should not have a quorum of three. Where the numbers of the commission are so small, the analysis of the decision making will be quite important to the consequences of its work. In all cases where a decision has to be made, there should at least be a majority in every case of the total membership of the commission.
Not only in view of the unanimity among Northern Ireland Members, which is rare on this Bill, but simply because of the sheer logic of my amendment--I put it in modest terms--and the sheer illogicality of the Government's amendment, I urge the Minister, perhaps with unique generosity at this early hour of the morning, to accept amendment No. 7 in place of Government amendment No. 28.
Mr. Thompson:
Will the Minister clarify the amendment? As I understand it, schedule 1, paragraph 2, states:
'(1A) For the purposes of this Act a protest meeting is "related" to a public procession if the purpose (or one of the purposes) of the meeting is to demonstrate opposition to the holding of that procession on its route or proposed route.'.--[Mr. Ingram.]
Amendment made: No. 26, in page 11, line 25, at end insert 'or protest meeting'.--[Mr. Ingram.]
'(6) Membership of the Parades Commission shall consist of United Kingdom citizens, resident in Northern Ireland, appointed by the Secretary of State so as to secure, as far as practicable, that the membership is representative of the community in Northern Ireland.'.
'The quorum for the purposes of a determination under section 7 shall be 3 where there are 5 members of the Commission, 4 where there are 6 members of the Commission and 5 where there are 7 members of the Commission.'.
"not more than 6 other members"
of the commission.
"The Secretary of State shall so exercise his powers of appointment under this paragraph as to secure that as far as is practicable the membership of the Commission is representative of the community in Northern Ireland".
The possibility of a complex society being properly represented in a way that is fair to the various sections of the community by a commission that has no more than six members is nonsense.
"Membership of the Parades Commission shall consist of United Kingdom citizens, resident in Northern Ireland, appointed by the Secretary of State so as to secure, as far as practicable, that the membership is representative of the community in Northern Ireland."
In other words, the amendment contains the provision that the Government have foolishly left out of their amendment. We urge the Government simply to dispense with amendment No. 27 and accept amendment No. 40. We would all be happy to hear the Government say that they, like us, believe that the commission should comprise United Kingdom citizens.
"The Commission shall consist of--
That appears to mean that the maximum would be seven. However, paragraph 2(2) states:
(a) a chairman; and
(b) not more than 6 other members".
"The Secretary of State may by order vary the number for the time being specified in sub-paragraph (1)(b)."
That seems to mean that the Secretary of State could have power to increase the maximum number to seven or eight, or possibly nine.
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