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Mr. Ancram: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I know that he is rushing through his speech to finish in time. He is talking about agreement. I asked him several questions about concordats and agreements. Will the agreement that he is talking about be subject to concordat? Will he answer some of my questions about concordats? This is an important issue.

Mr. McLeish: The grant will not be covered by any concordat. We believe that the principles and the rules surrounding Barnett will be sufficient. We want to ensure that any concordats--I am going wide of the issue--are non-statutory and as public as possible. Such arrangements will be between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government, when the Scottish Executive is established.

The final amendment--No. 294--is difficult to fathom. It would strike out subsection (6), which requires Scottish Ministers to make payments to the Secretary of State in respect of certain receipts. It should be resisted.

I suggest that the lead amendment should be withdrawn and that the others should not be pressed. If not, I ask the Committee to vote them down.

Mr. Ancram: We have had an important and far-reaching debate on an important and far-reaching subject. I welcome the fact that so many hon. Members have spoken. I found the Minister's answers disappointing. I said that amendment No. 294 was probing, tabled so that he could explain a provision that I did not understand. He said that he found the amendment difficult to understand. I hope that we can return to that, because it is important.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) was right to try to set the issue in a broader context. One of the difficulties that we have on constitutional reform is that the Government are approaching it piecemeal. I agree with my right hon. Friend that we should have a more comprehensive approach.

I am also grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing), for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne), for Poole (Mr. Syms) and for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). They strongly supported our amendment and reinforced my initial arguments. Our amendment is constructive. The principle was accepted by almost everyone who spoke except the Minister. I am

12 Feb 1998 : Column 604

disappointed that, once again, his reaction to a constructive amendment was resist, resist, resist because it looks weak to do otherwise. I had hoped that such a constructive amendment would be given greater consideration--if only a promise by the Minister to go away and look at it and perhaps come back with an alternative. I am sorry that he did not.

It is depressing that so few Scottish Labour Members felt that the issue was of sufficient importance to attend the debate. One or two faithful Scottish Labour Members have been present, but the majority of them were nowhere to be seen. The issue will affect all their constituents.

Mr. Canavan: What about the Scottish Tory Members?

Mr. Ancram: If there were Scottish Tories, they would have contributed to the debate. They would know that their constituents' prosperity depended on the issue. We have learnt from the empty Labour Benches what Scottish Labour Members think about the future funding of their constituencies. Labour Members from the north-east were not even seen. I suspect that the Whips were working hard to keep them away in case they embarrassed the Minister.

The Minister's argument is difficult to accept. He says that the current administrative arrangements have worked well for the past 20 years, so we should keep them in place. It is not as if things were not changing. The Secretary of State tells us that the whole devolutionary project is historic, fundamental and exciting, yet the Minister says that we need not put anything into the Bill because nothing will have changed. A lot will have changed. The main thing will be that instead of a partnership within the United Kingdom, under one unitary Government whose members can get together and share problems and the resources to solve them, we shall have two separate Administrations who will not necessarily see eye to eye. That situation is totally different from the present one and the Minister has failed to address that.

The Minister said that we should not move away from a tried and tested system, but we are moving away from a tried and tested constitutional system in the Bill by setting up a Scottish Parliament. Nothing on the financial side recognises that fact. Listening to him, I found no comfort on the points that I raised.

The hon. and learned Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) underlined my case when he said that Scotland has special needs. If it does, let us have a needs relationship built into the statute so that it can be tested year on year to ensure that funds and resources are fairly produced. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor), with his enormous experience, was right. We are looking for a fair, transparent system which will avoid constant friction between a Scottish Parliament and the Westminster Parliament. That is the key to what we are discussing.

I do not expect the Scottish National party to join us in the Lobby tonight. It will not support any amendment likely to make the Scottish Parliament work. The nationalists want it to fail because that is how they can achieve their ultimate goal of an independent Scotland. If the amendment is constructive, they will not be with us.

If we wanted proof of future confrontations, we had only to listen to the speech of the hon. Member for

12 Feb 1998 : Column 605

Dundee, East (Mr. McAllion). He gave us an example, if we needed one, of what matters will be like unless something more is written into the Bill. He abused English Members; he was rude about them and insulted them. He told us that we did not understand Scotland. We heard the authentic voice of the confrontation that is going to come unless some safeguard is built into the Bill. I have heard nothing to justify withdrawing the amendment. On that basis, I ask my hon. Friends to support it.

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The Committee divided: Ayes 113, Noes 304.

Division No. 169
[6.41 pm


Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Butterfill, John
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James
Curry, Rt Hon David
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Day, Stephen
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, Nigel
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Flight, Howard
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fox, Dr Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Sir Alastair
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Hayes, John
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hunter, Andrew
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Moss, Malcolm
Norman, Archie
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Prior, David
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Ruffley, David
St Aubyn, Nick
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spring, Richard
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Townend, John
Tredinnick, David
Tyrie, Andrew
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Oliver Heald and
Sir David Madel.


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Boateng, Paul
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burstow, Paul
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Canavan, Dennis
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dismore, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Drown, Ms Julia
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Fearn, Ronnie
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Gorrie, Donald
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harris, Dr Evan
Healey, John
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Hepburn, Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)
Khabra, Piara S
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Kirkwood, Archy
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Livingstone, Ken
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McCartney, Ian (Makerfield)
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
Mallaber, Judy
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salmond, Alex
Salter, Martin
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stott, Roger
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Swinney, John
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr Rudi
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
Welsh, Andrew
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Willis, Phil
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. David Jamieson and
Ms Bridget Prentice.

Question accordingly negatived.

12 Feb 1998 : Column 608

Amendment proposed: No. 77, in page 26, line 4, leave out from 'shall' to end of line 6 and insert

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