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'in respect of each financial year make payments into the Fund equalling the revenue raised by the Exchequer in Scotland and in the Scottish sector of the United Kingdom continental shelf.'.--[Mr. Swinney.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The Committee divided: Ayes 4, Noes 276.

Division No. 170
[6.53 pm


AYES


Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
(Perth)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Salmond, Alex
Swinney, John

Tellers for the Ayes:


Mr. Andrew Welsh and
Mr. Alasdair Morgan.


NOES


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Boateng, Paul
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burstow, Paul
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Stephen
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Canavan, Dennis
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dismore, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Drown, Ms Julia
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fearn, Ronnie
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Gorrie, Donald
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harris, Dr Evan
Healey, John
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Hepburn, Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Hoey, Kate
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Kirkwood, Archy
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Livingstone, Ken
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
Mallaber, Judy
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Mullin, Chris
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr Rudi
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Willis, Phil
Winnick, David
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Noes:


Ms Bridget Prentice and
Mr. David Jamieson.

Question accordingly negatived.

12 Feb 1998 : Column 610

Mr. Dalyell: I beg to move amendment No. 81, in page 26, line 6, at end insert--


'(2A) No such payment as is mentioned in subsection (2) shall be made in respect of any financial year unless prior to the commencement of that financial year--
(a) the Scottish Executive has submitted to the Secretary of State a report containing the Executive's detailed expenditure plans for the financial year in question, and--
(b) the Secretary of State has laid the report before the House of Commons at least ten sitting days before any motion is made in that House for the approval of a grant of Supply authorising the payment.'.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 83, in page 26, line 6, at end insert--


'(2A) The Secretary of State shall not make a payment under subsection (2) if at any time when such a payment would otherwise fall due he is not satisfied that the Scottish Executive has established, or is maintaining, proper arrangements for financial scrutiny and auditing of accounts in accordance with sections (Financial control, account and audit), (Accounting officers) and (Arrangements for independent audit of accounts of Scottish Executive).'. Amendment No. 242, in page 26, line 6, at end insert--
'(2A) No payment shall be made under subsection (2) unless the Secretary of State is satisfied that appropriate rules have been made under section 66(1) for each of the purposes described in that provision.
(2B) No payment shall be made under subsection (2) unless--
(a) the Scottish Executive has submitted to the Secretary of State a report containing particulars of the expenditure proposals to which the payment relates, and
(b) the Secretary of State had laid the report before the House of Commons at least ten sitting days before any motion is made in that House for the approval of a grant of supply out of which the payment is to be made.'. Amendment No. 296, in clause 62, page 26, leave out lines 33 and 34.

12 Feb 1998 : Column 611

Amendment No. 297, in page 26, line 36, at end add--
'(4) The total sums which the Scottish Parliament proposes to pay out of the Fund in any financial year shall not exceed the sums expected to be paid into that fund for the same financial year.'. Amendment No. 257, in clause 66, page 28, leave out lines 13 and 14 and insert--
'(3) Standing orders made under Paragraph 4 of Schedule 3 shall provide that a committee shall be appointed with the function of considering accounts and reports laid before the Parliament in pursuance of subsection (1)(e) and that--
(a) that committee may not delegate its functions to another committee or sub-committee,
(b) no member of the Scottish Executive may be a member of that committee, and
(c) the person chairing that committee may not be--
(i) a person representing a party of which any of the Scottish Ministers are members, or
(ii) if each of the parties in the Parliament have one or more of the Scottish Ministers as a member, a person representing the party of which the First Minister is a member.'. Amendment No. 244, in page 28, line 17, at end add--
'(5) Rules made for the purposes of subsection (1) shall provide for--
(a) accounts prepared under paragraphs (a) and (b) of that subsection to comply with any directions from time to time given by the Treasury as to the form of the accounts, the information to be provided in them and the general practices and principles to be observed in their preparation, and
(b) the designation of accounting officers accountable to the Parliament for the expenditure to which the accounts relate and the specification of their responsibilities.
(6) The Act of the Scottish Parliament by or under which the rules referred to in subsection (1) are made shall make provision that, if the Treasury so direct, those rules and the functions under subsection (2) shall, to such extent and with such modifications as the direction concerned may provide, apply to any body established by an enactment or subordinate legislation and specified in the direction in relation to which it is within the legislative competence of the Parliament to make such provision.
(7) The Act of the Scottish Parliament by or under which the rules referred to in subsection (1) are made shall make provision for the independent person referred to in subsection (1)(c)--
(a) to be appointed by Her Majesty on an address presented by the Parliament, and
(b) to be removed by Her Majesty before the end of the period for which he was appointed only on an address presented by the Parliament approved by a resolution passed by at least two thirds of the whole number of its members.
(8) The Act of the Scottish Parliament by or under which the rules referred to in subsection (1) are made shall make provision for the independent person referred to in subsection (1)(c) to prepare for each financial year estimates of the income and expenditure of his office and for those estimates to be considered by the Parliament or one of its committees or subcommittees.'. Clause 66 stand part. New clause 3--Financial control, accounts and audit--
'(1) The Scottish Executive shall, for each financial year, prepare accounts in accordance with directions given to it by the Treasury.
(2) The directions which the Treasury may give under subsection (1) include directions to prepare accounts relating to the financial affairs and transactions of persons other than the Scottish Executive.
(3) The directions which the Treasury may give under subsection (1) include, in particular, directions as to--

12 Feb 1998 : Column 612

(a) the financial affairs and transactions to which the accounts are to relate,
(b) the information to be contained in the accounts and the manner in which it is to be presented,
(c) the methods and principles in accordance with which the accounts are to be prepared, and
(d) the additional information (if any) that is to accompany the accounts.
(4) Any accounts which the Executive is directed under this section to prepare for any financial year shall be submitted by the Executive to the Comptroller and Auditor General no later than five months after the end of that financial year.
(5) The Comptroller and Auditor General shall--
(a) examine and certify any accounts submitted to him under this section, and
(b) no later than four months after the accounts are submitted to him, lay before both the Parliament and the House of Commons a copy of them as certified by him together with his report on them.
(6) In examining any accounts submitted to him under this section, the Comptroller and Auditor General shall, in particular, satisfy himself--
(a) that no expenditure to which the accounts relate has been incurred unlawfully or otherwise than in accordance with the authority which governs it, and
(b) that money received by the Executive for a particular purpose or particular purposes has not been expended otherwise than on that purpose or those purposes.
(7) Where--
(a) by virtue of any enactment other than this section the Executive is under an obligation to prepare accounts dealing with any matters, and
(b) it appears to the Treasury that those matters fall to be dealt with in accounts directed to be prepared under this section,
the Treasury may relieve the Executive of that obligation for or in respect of such periods as they may direct.
(8) A reference in this section to the Comptroller and Auditor General may be construed as a reference to such person as he may appoint to exercise on his behalf the specific functions in relation to the accounts of the Scottish Executive which are set out in this section.'. New clause 4--Arrangements for independent audit of accounts of Scottish Executive--
'.--(1) The Standing Orders of the Parliament shall provide for the establishment of arrangements, supervised by an independent person, for--
(a) the scrutiny of the accounts of the Scottish Executive,
(b) the carrying out of examinations into the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which the Scottish Ministers and the Lord Advocate have used their resources in discharging their functions, and
(c) the carrying out of examinations into the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which other persons determined under rules approved by the Parliament to whom sums are paid out of the Fund or by the Scottish Ministers have used those sums in discharging their functions.
(2) Standing orders shall also provide for the consideration by the Parliament, including by any Committee appointed for that purpose, of accounts laid before it in pursuance of section (Financial control, accounts and audit).
(3) For the purposes of this section, a person is independent if he is not subject to the direction or control of any member of the Scottish Executive or of the Parliament in exercising that function.'. New clause 5--Accounting officers--
'.--(1) The Treasury shall designate a member of the staff of the Scottish Executive as the Executive's principal accounting officer.

12 Feb 1998 : Column 613


(2) The Executive's principal accounting officer shall have in relation to the Executive's accounts and finances the responsibilities which are from time to time specified by the Treasury.
(3) The Treasury may designate other members of the Executive's staff as additional accounting officers.
(4) An additional accounting officer shall have in relation to the Executive's accounts and finances such responsibilities as may be specified in the instrument by which he is designated.
(5) The responsibilities that may be specified under this section in relation to the Executive's accounts and finances (or any of them) include in particular--
(a) responsibilities in relation to the signing of accounts,
(b) responsibilities for the propriety and regularity of the Executive's finances, and
(c) responsibilities for the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which the Executive uses its resources.
(6) The responsibilities which may be specified under this section include responsibilities owed to--
(a) the Parliament or any committee appointed by it to scrutinise the accounts of the Executive, or
(b) the House of Commons or its Committee of Public Accounts,
and in the case of an additional accounting officer include responsibilities owed to the Executive's principal accounting officer.'. Amendment No. 80, in schedule 7, page 85, leave out lines 16 to 21. Amendment No. 246, in page 85, leave out lines 17 to 21 and insert--
'10. In section 6 of the National Audit Act 1983 (value for money studies)--
(a) after paragraph (c) of subsection (3) there is inserted--"(ca) the Scottish Executive and any other persons to whom sums are paid out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund; and", and
(b) after subsection (4) there is inserted--
"(4A) No examinations should be carried out under this section by the Comptroller and Auditor General pursuant to subsection (3)(ca) unless he has consulted the independent person referred to in section 66(1)(c) of the Scotland Act 1998 and he has taken into account any relevant work done or being done by that person".'.

Mr. Dalyell: Amendment Nos. 81 and 83, which I have also tabled, could be called the reduction of girning amendments, although I do not know whether that is a parliamentary term. The reality is that in 1999, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland goes off to Holyrood, accompanied by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond), they and the Ministers at Holyrood, indeed every Member of the Holyrood Parliament, will soon come to regard the main function of those of us, their former colleagues, who are left at Westminster, to be to pursue one purpose above all others. In their eyes, that purpose will inevitably be to get more lolly, more money, from the Treasury. In the eyes of all Holyrood Members of Parliament, any other function that those of us who are left here may have will be minuscule compared with that one basic task. That is the reality of the matter.


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