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Mr. Evans: I support new clause 38. I hope that the Secretary of State will not fall off his seat when he hears me say that. [Laughter.] Even I do not believe what I am saying. I think that the new clause is a sensible way of approaching an issue that is vital not only to all of us, but to future generations. That is what sustainable development is all about. It involves thinking about present and future generations.
Everybody is "green" nowadays and it will be interesting to see whether the Secretary of State chooses a green-field site, or recycles city hall or the guild hall in Swansea for the assembly. I understand that there will shortly be an announcement about how green he intends to be on its siting. I am told that Ministers are giving up cars and walking. As Gwydyr house is not far from here, I expect that the Secretary of State is doing that. Perhaps his car follows him carrying his red box or perhaps he carries it himself.
Mr. Dafis:
The hon. Gentleman speaks about the assembly building. I hope that he and the Secretary of State agree that it presents an opportunity for energy efficiency. It may produce some of its electricity by means of new technology such as photovoltaics, and it is important that it should be accessible by public transport.
6.30 pm
Mr. Evans: I am sure that if the hot air from the Chamber was recycled, it would heat the Palace of Westminster and some other buildings. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and if the Secretary of State chooses a green-field site for the development, it will be necessary to examine the project at the planning stage. That is the best way to ensure energy efficiency, and I hope that that will be taken into account.
We are building on Agenda 21 and the second Earth summit, which was preceded by the Rio summit in 1992. New clause 38(6) refers to a yearly account to show exactly how the assembly has implemented its proposals, and that will enable people to measure how seriously the assembly takes sustainability. I hope that the partnership council's discussions with local authorities will give direction and a fresh impetus to an all-Wales strategy. The
hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis) spoke about that. It will also enable people to see how local authorities are fulfilling their agendas.
Mr. Ron Davies:
The hon. Gentleman mentions an interesting concept. Perhaps he will explain why he and his colleagues voted against the partnership council.
Mr. Evans:
We voted against it because we thought that it would not have any teeth and that it was to meet only once a year. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I spoke about it meeting perhaps eight times a year. I hope that the other place can look again at the partnership council and give it some real teeth. There should be proper discussion between local authorities and Members of the Assembly on matters such as sustainable development. One of the assembly Committees could examine sustainability as part of its environmental remit. It must be given impetus in Wales rather than lip service.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion mentioned other areas that we should examine; one of them is traffic. I know that local authorities will look at traffic problems in their areas; we appreciate that large cities are not the only places with such problems. The assembly can offer guidance and support to local authorities on traffic management. For example, perhaps the railways could carry much of the freight that will result from new investment in Wales.
I was born in Swansea, and I suspect that if sustainability had been on our consciences in the 1960s, the Mumbles railway would still be operating in Swansea. Because of a wanton act of vandalism, that railway is no more. It is unlikely that it will be brought back, but at least its fate enables us to learn from our mistakes and discover ways in which we can protect other features in Wales for future generations. If the Mumbles railway had been retained, it would not have produced the amount of exhaust gases that are currently pumped out by cars using the Mumbles road.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion spoke about giving the WDA a bigger role. The assembly can give guidance and encourage development and new investment on brown-field sites. At the design stage of buildings for new industries, more heed could be paid to sustainability and more environmentally friendly ways of building. On energy policy, we all carefully follow planning policy guidance 22. Wind energy was mentioned, and it would be remiss of me if I did not speak about that, because Wales has suffered more than most areas from the erection of wind turbines in places where they should not be.
Mr. Dafis:
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Wales enjoys a large amount of wind energy development? Such energy is clean, and involves no extraction, transport, processing, combustion or emissions. Can the hon. Gentleman think of a better way of producing electricity?
Mr. Evans:
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I disagree with him on that issue. I am president of Country Guardians, and I was in touch with Ann West, who lives in Powys and has written to me today about the problem of wind energy generators in Wales. If the wind turbines
The assembly could give its views on sustainable energy. The hon. Member for Ceredigion spoke about a target of 10 per cent. of renewable energy by 2010. We support that, but it could mean that an area the size of Birmingham would be covered in wind turbines. We must examine all renewable sources and concentrate not just on an inefficient one, which is the wind turbine. Hydro power is far more efficient. Future wind turbine technology may make that system more efficient, so that fewer turbines are required.
As the Minister knows, some wind turbines are 300 ft high and create noise problems. Sunshine is reflected from them into houses, and they scar the countryside because they can be seen for miles. They cannot be hidden because their purpose is to catch the wind. People who live close to large farms of wind turbines take a certain view of them. I hope that any scheme or strategy that is presented by the assembly will ensure that people can have a say about the sustainable or renewable energy that they want for the future.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion spoke about the new branding for Wales. Of course, it is a green and pleasant country. We want to ensure that it remains just like that.
The Welsh assembly has a great opportunity. I am delighted that the Government have tabled new clause 38, and I hope that the people of Wales and the assembly will grasp that opportunity.
Ms Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North):
I am pleased to speak in the debate, and I especially welcome the Government's new clause 38 on sustainable development. Like the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis), I think that the new clause will provide an opportunity for Wales to be in the forefront of thinking, by enshrining the principle of sustainable development in legislation. We do not want the public to continue to think that it is always a matter of the environment versus the economy: we want them to realise that one is strongly linked to the other. We want also to integrate successfully economic and environmental goals with social objectives, and to safeguard the environment of Wales.
The debate on this group of amendments and new clauses--especially new clause 38--is therefore a very exciting occasion. I think that sustainable development will be at the heart of the assembly's policies, and I hope that it will be considered as a part of every action taken and policy developed by the assembly.
I have thought about the sustainable development issues that might arise in my constituency of Cardiff, North, which should be dealt with within a strategic framework. In my constituency, the town is gradually encroaching up the M4 towards the mountains, and the A470--which is probably one of the busiest roads in Wales--comes down from the valleys, surging through the Taff gorge and into the constituency, with traffic pouring down towards the centre of Cardiff.
We want a strategic plan to deal with those issues: to preserve the green belt; to maintain the gap between Cardiff and Caerphilly, and between Cardiff and Newport; to allow development in specific areas; to encourage a strong integrated public transport corridor; and to deal with issues such as transportation of radioactive waste, which is one of the big issues in my constituency. If we have an integrated strategy to deal with all those issues, we shall be able to make not only my constituency but all of Wales a much more pleasant and better place to live in.
The location of the assembly has been mentioned in the debate. I should like to say very strongly that I hope that the assembly will be located on recycled land in the centre of a city, in a recycled building and very close to good transport links--such as a five-minute walk from a major station. Only one place fits that description.
Environmental groups have raised some issues on certain aspects of new clause 38, and I should like to have the Secretary of State's reassurance on some of them. One is the use in the new clause of the phrase "with due regard". Does that mean that a duty will be placed on the assembly? Will it require the assembly to promote sustainable development? I am not accustomed to the legalistic language used in Bills, and I should therefore like the Secretary of State to clarify that point.
The new clause also does not mention any measurable targets or indicators. I therefore assume that the Secretary of State expects that the assembly will include such targets in its annual reports. Nevertheless, I should like his reassurance on the matter.
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