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Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): Pardon an intrusion from a Scot. Much of this is familiar, but what can a Welsh assembly do to overcome the very real problem that the hon. Gentleman outlines that enlightened Ministers in the Welsh Office cannot?
Mr. Llwyd: I believe that the basic problem has been the tug of war between the Department of Trade and Industry, the WDA and the Welsh Office. We all know that it has been going on behind closed doors, and we know that there is a finite budget, even in a Welsh context, but equally in a United Kingdom context. There has been far too much toing and froing, and far too much of that tug of war between Departments.
At least when we have a national assembly, there will be no tug of war within that body. I hope that, within the assembly, there will be an overall view of the needs of the whole of Wales, and I trust that the assembly will be guided by expert committees on the needs of rural areas and so on. Does the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) wish to raise another point?
Mr. Dalyell:
Is not the proposed Welsh assembly stretching the goodness of human nature rather far?
Mr. Llwyd:
That is not an unusual comment from the hon. Gentleman. He has been saying that for 25 or
Surely, with respect to the hon. Gentleman, it is not beyond the ken of any type of national assembly to address the real economic needs of rural and urban areas. I realise that finance will be needed, but at least we shall not have this tug of war, which has taken much time and energy.
I remember, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), arguing with the late great right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who at one time walked the streets of Cardiff very occasionally. The first thing we discussed with him after he became Secretary of State for Wales was the idea of giving a new development status to the southern part of my right hon. Friend's constituency and the northerly part of mine, following the closure of a large plant. Everyone, including the Welsh Office, seemed to support that proposal, but it was stopped at the last minute by the Department of Trade and Industry. I hope that that type of thing will not happen when we have the national assembly. It is inconceivable to me that it will happen.
I realise that there is a finite budget, and that there will be a certain amount of creative tension regarding that budget, as there is in the setting of priorities, but at least we shall do away with that time-wasting exercise.
Mr. Wigley:
My hon. Friend mentioned one example of difficulties with the DTI. He will remember that, as recently as last year, Steven Spielberg wanted to make a film in Wales. The Welsh Office supported the idea, but unfortunately it could not carry other Government Departments with it, and the film was made in Ireland. Surely, in a similar situation, we should have much more clout with our own assembly.
Mr. Llwyd:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Needless to say, I agree with what he said.
To return briefly to what I said earlier, I believe that it is highly desirable that the national assembly has an explicit duty to promote and sustain the interests of rural Wales. Rural Wales amounts to more than 85 per cent. of the land mass of the country, and Wales has a very strong rural character.
I shall not repeat an argument made some weeks ago, but the Environment Act 1995 sets a clear precedent. Under the 1995 Act, national park authorities have a duty to foster the economic and social well-being of local communities, and to co-operate with public agencies whose functions include the promotion of economic and social development in their areas.
Surely we cannot leave the situation as it is. It is a very, very important--indeed, all-important--remit, and if we merely leave it to the area committee structure, we shall
fail the people who voted in favour of the national assembly. I believe that there must be a thorough appraisal of current thinking and current policy in creating sustainable economic and social development in rural areas.
The Government have responded positively to many of the far-sighted suggestions of my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Dafis) about sustainable growth. Surely what I am now suggesting is part and parcel of the same important debate.
We are in the teeth of a fierce storm in agriculture. We know that there will be a change in the very near future, because common agricultural policy reform is imminent and the industry will have to change; of that we can be sure. However, our rural communities and rural economies will also have to change. It is vital that the national assembly is able, and is speedily given the right and the responsibility, to input policy suggestions into that discussion. I hope that there will be a subject Committee dealing with agriculture and rural development, as that would seem to be a sensible vehicle to assure sympathetic and effective development.
Recently, via the European Commission, the European Union issued a plan for agri-environmental policies and those dealing with the development of the rural economy to be brought within a single framework. The National Assembly for Wales would do well to emulate that move.
I hope that I have established that there is a vital need for forward thinking in terms of the rural economy. Agriculture is a central consideration, but so is transport infrastructure, the creation of sympathetic light industry, telematics, electronic infrastructure and agricultural diversification. There are numerous other important facets. I trust that the Government will look favourably upon the amendment, which would introduce into Wales the same sort of forward thinking exercised by the Countryside Commission in England.
I am not too proud to say that I would seek to borrow some of the commission's ideas--I would also like to borrow some ideas from the English rugby team--because they tackle a breadth of subjects regarding rural life and the economy. The commission deals with those issues very effectively under the one roof. Huge challenges will face rural Wales in the coming months and years, and they must be met. If we begin by giving the agency responsibility for addressing those issues, it will be a valuable step towards meeting that all-important challenge.
Mr. Gareth Thomas:
In speaking in opposition to amendment No. 520, I acknowledge that it raises the converse of the issue explored so well by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands). They asked whether, under the enhanced WDA, there would be a lack of focus in terms not only of the industrial economy of Wales but of rural areas. I resist the amendment because I do not believe that it is simply a question of structure: it is more a matter of educating Members of the Assembly and Welsh citizens about the need to strike a balance between the treatment of rural and urban areas in Wales.
Establishing a regional affairs department, which is the subject of this amendment, will not of itself guarantee adequate funding or attention to rural areas. We must
accept that there is a risk with devolution that the role of the Secretary of State as an honest broker or umpire will be lost. However, hon. Members--including my legalistic friends on Labour Benches--and I support devolution because issues must be exposed to the light of day and debated openly.
One of the strengths of the Government's proposals is that they will allow genuine, open, democratic debate about issues that have arisen under the quangocracy fostered by the Conservative party for 18 years. The imbalance between north and south Wales in terms of economic development might be defined more precisely as an imbalance between west and east, as there is substantial inward investment in north-east Wales--especially along the A55 corridor. We must address that matter.
I welcome the establishment of the National Assembly for Wales as an opportunity to consider that issue openly and democratically. We must also address the imbalance of investment between urban and rural areas in Wales. If there is genuine, open debate, I feel confident that the quality of decision making will improve and that both rural and urban areas will feel well served by the new institution.
How does the Minister view the role of rural policy within the enhanced WDA? It seems that the Government are not minded to pursue a policy of ring-fencing funds for rural development. None the less, there must be some focus on rural areas. I would be interested to hear the Minister's comments in that regard. I would also be interested to hear his views about the issues raised by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd).
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