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Mr. Rowlands: I am following the Minister as closely as I can. What if the two bodies concerned refuse to comply?
Mr. Hain: I am sure that Her Majesty would not want to be put in that position. My hon. Friend made some very good points--I suspect at short notice, but he was no less eloquent for that. The Arts Council of Wales and the Sports Council for Wales are bodies created by charter or royal warrant. Therefore, the assembly would not have the power simply to amend their auditing arrangements and it would not be appropriate to do so in the Bill.
Mr. Rowlands: If I may pursue that point, the assembly would not have the power to amend those arrangements, but Parliament does. I drew attention to that fact in correspondence and through interventions in much
earlier debates. I took advice from the Library, and it is clear that Parliament can overrule and change the arrangements. Is it a lack of political will, rather than a complicated technical exercise, that has led us to this impasse?
Mr. Hain: We decided--I am sure that my hon. Friend would have done the same in our position--that this was the best way to approach the issue. It was not a question of a lack of political will; it was a question of convention and the right and proper way to proceed.
Mr. Hanson: I have listened very carefully to the Minister's comments. Does he mean that the Conservatives in opposition have proposed an amendment that transfers powers from Her Majesty the Queen to the Welsh assembly?
Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend raises a very interesting question. I am not sure that that is the Opposition's intention--perhaps it is one consequence of their amendments. We are behaving with extreme decorum and responsibility in this matter, and it is interesting to note that Conservative Members are not doing the same.
Mr. Ancram: This is new Labour. This is modernisation.
Mr. Hain: The right hon. Gentleman chides me for adopting new Labour practices. Apparently the Conservative party is considering changing not only its whole structure but possibly even its name. Plaid Cymru may do the same thing. Perhaps that is a consequence of the new inclusive politics that has been sparked off in the Welsh context.
Mr. Paterson: Can the Minister explain where the decorum and responsibility are in the clause? It is in breach of the statement made by the Secretary of State to the House when he introduced the White Paper. He said:
- "The Assembly will be given sweeping powers to democratise and if necessary further restructure the quango state."--[Official Report, 25 July 1997; Vol. 298, c. 1124.]
- "No longer will our key public services lie in the hands of political appointees operating in secret and accountable to no one in Wales."--[Official Report, 22 July 1997; Vol. 298, c. 755.]
Mr. Hain: There is no anomaly. The Bill is full of decorum and responsibility. As the hon. Gentleman refers to the bonfire of the quangos, I shall try to answer him fully in the time available. You will tell me, Mr. Martin, whether I am in order.
The five bodies that will be abolished spend £164 million. That is almost one fifth of the total sum spent by the bodies. If the assembly abolished all the bodies possible, there would be only 16 bodies left, compared to the 45 that exist now.
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield):
On a point of order, Mr. Martin. What has that to do with the Arts Council of Wales and the Sports Council for Wales?
The First Deputy Chairman:
The Minister is in order. If he were out of order, I would have told him so.
Mr. Hain:
I am grateful, Mr. Martin, and I will stay in order as best I can. I am sure that you will keep me in order if I stray. With all due humility, I was answering a question that had been put to me.
The assembly has the ability to leave only 16 quangos in existence, if it so chooses. That amounts to a bonfire of the quangos, which we lit with the Bill, and we have complied with our commitments in the White Paper.
Why did we not abolish all the bodies? That brings me directly to the Arts Council of Wales and the Sports Council for Wales. They, together with three other bodies--the National Library of Wales, the National Museum of Wales and the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales--are all bodies created by charter or royal warrant.
Unless the Conservative Opposition have suddenly become a republican Opposition, surely they would agree with me that it is for Her Majesty to agree changes to those bodies. It is not appropriate to amend them by means of a Bill. I am surprised at the blatant irresponsibility of the Conservative Opposition in suggesting that.
Mr. Wigley:
If, as the Minister suggests, a voluntary change may be introduced by those bodies and taken through the appropriate channels with the palace, would it be the intention of the Secretary of State to use the provision under subsection (6) to amend schedule 13 to bring the two bodies into the schedule's purview?
Mr. Hain:
I do not think that that would be necessary. It will be possible to accomplish the necessary changes as set out in the provisions of the Bill for auditing arrangements and other matters.
Mr. Letwin:
May I intrude briefly on this amusing spectacle by asking for genuine clarification? Now that the Minister has admitted that the National Library of Wales, the National Museum of Wales and the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales are also established by warrant or charter, can he explain why they fall not in part III, but in part I of the schedule? Is it because they already have in their warrants or charters provisions for audit that are different from those relating to other bodies?
Mr. Hain:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that sensible and not excessively legalistic point. It is a straightforward and common-sense question. [Interruption.] The Whip says, "For a change." That is uncharitable.
Why does the Bill provide for the other charter bodies--the national library, the national museum--to be audited by the Auditor General for Wales? The answer is that grant is paid to the national library and the national museum under section 9 of the Museums and Galleries Act 1992, which also provides for them to prepare accounts and for those accounts to be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is therefore possible for an order under clause 138 to transfer those functions to the Auditor General for Wales. They are thus in a different position.
Mr. Rowlands:
I am not a republican, but I am a parliamentarian. Will my hon. Friend confirm that Parliament can abolish such a charter?
Mr. Hain:
As I understand it--from my point of view, I am straying into uncharted territory constitutionally--
Mr. Hain:
Does the hon. Gentleman want to have a go at me again?
Mr. Letwin:
First, I thank the Minister for his lucid explanation. I congratulate him on having found an instance--I think uniquely in the Committee's examination of such, and I quote, "legalistic points"--in which the Government and their draftsmen have not made an error that they subsequently need to write to somebody about to correct.
Mr. Hain:
Touche. The hon. Gentleman makes his point with his customary elegance and legalistic wit.
As for examinations of the use of resources by the councils are concerned--the Arts Council of Wales and the Sports Council for Wales--the Government propose that the Auditor General for Wales should have equivalent powers to those that are set out in the National Audit Act 1983. Clause 137 and schedule 13 provide for that.
The national lottery accounts of the councils are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General under section 35 of the National Lottery etc. Act 1993. The Government have no plans to change that. To make the most effective use of auditor resources, the Auditor General for Wales will be able to use staff of the National Audit Office under clause 92, so that, as now, one team of auditors could order both sets of accounts. In the light of that explanation, I invite the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale to withdraw the amendment.
I wish to respond to some specific points which were raised by the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale. He said that the Government were somehow embarrassed about sport and the arts. I confess, as a Minister, to being embarrassed about the performance of Wales at Twickenham last Saturday. It was the first time that I had been to Twickenham since I was carried off the pitch in January 1970, in the context of an anti-apartheid demonstration against the all-white South African team. Judging by the performance of Wales, it might not be a good idea if I were to go back too soon to watch them play.
The Government are not embarrassed about their commitment to sport, whether it be rugby, football or anything else. As a new Labour Government, through lottery and other provision we have committed ourselves to ensuring that we make Britain, and in our own context Wales, one of the best sporting nations in the world.
9.45 pm
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