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Sir Brian Mawhinney: I agree. I should not have had the nerve to say that about the hon. Member for Worcester, but, as the Minister describes him in those terms, I will agree with the Minister that his hon. Friend is not nearly as nice as he looks. The reason we know that is the Bill, and the contempt for the House that he shows in promoting it.

I said that I would be brief, and I want to address my second point. Earlier in the Bill's passage, the Minister said that he had assumed, on behalf of the Government, some responsibility for it. We understand why, because the hon. Member for Worcester is not safe to be let out alone.

However, the consequences of the Bill will affect Anglo-Irish relations. My question to the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone was not a time-wasting question. The relationship between the north and south of Ireland is one of the most contentious issues that the Government are facing, and they are facing that issue with Opposition support, because we all recognise the deep significance to the lives of people who are British citizens as well as Irish citizens, of--historically--getting things right for the first time in generations.

12.45 pm

The Government sit there, without a Northern Ireland Minister on the Treasury Bench, willing to contemplate, on the back of supporting the Bill, all the consequences that will flow for the relations between the two countries--

Mr. McNamara rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put, but Mr. Deputy Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

Mr. Gray: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Having heard that there is likely to be a closure motion,

13 Mar 1998 : Column 890

may I point out that those of us who are passionately opposed to new clauses 18 and 32 and amendment No. 101 have not so far had an opportunity to explain why?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): The hon. Gentleman should know that a closure is within my gift, and he does not know what is likely to happen.

Sir Brian Mawhinney: I said that I would not be long, and I tell the hon. Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) that I am almost finished, but I am making a serious point. The Bill addresses issues concerning the liberty of the individual, and we have examined them in detail. We are now examining questions of the liberty of Irish citizens who come into Northern Ireland, who may not even know that they are in Northern Ireland.

There are four Ministers on the Treasury Bench. It is worrying that they can sit there and not say that the Bill may have negative consequences for Anglo-Irish relations, and for relations between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland, stemming from the implications and the application of the Bill in this context. I say to the Minister that, in whatever time is available before the Chair exercises its authority, it would be helpful to hear the Government's view at least on this aspect of new clause 18, even if the Minister does not want to get into the broader issues that so exercise the House.

Mr. Bennett rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put:--

The House divided: Ayes 150, Noes 40.

Division No. 209
[12.48 pm


AYES


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Bermingham, Gerald
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Butler, Mrs Christine
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cranston, Ross
Darvill, Keith
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Efford, Clive
Etherington, Bill
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Gale, Roger
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Norman A
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hancock, Mike
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hill, Keith
Home Robertson, John
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Lepper, David
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mallaber, Judy
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Mountford, Kali
Murphy, Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Palmer, Dr Nick
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Rendel, David
Rooker, Jeff
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Shaw, Jonathan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vis, Dr Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Tellers for the Ayes:


Mr. John Heppell and
Mr. Joe Benton.


NOES


Arbuthnot, James
Baldry, Tony
Boswell, Tim
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Colvin, Michael
Curry, Rt Hon David
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Fallon, Michael
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gray, James
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hoey, Kate
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, Rt Hon David
Maginnis, Ken
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
Öpik, Lembit
St Aubyn, Nick
Spring, Richard
Streeter, Gary
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Tyrie, Andrew
Woodward, Shaun
Yeo, Tim

Tellers for the Noes:


Mr. Owen Paterson and
Mr. Peter Atkinson.

Question accordingly agreed to.

13 Mar 1998 : Column 891

Question put accordingly, That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided: Ayes 31, Noes 154.

13 Mar 1998 : Column 892

Division No. 210
[1 pm


AYES


Baldry, Tony
Boswell, Tim
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Colvin, Michael
Curry, Rt Hon David
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Fallon, Michael
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Garnier, Edward
Greenway, John
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hawkins, Nick
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hoey, Kate
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Luff, Peter
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McNamara, Kevin
Maginnis, Ken
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
Öpik, Lembit
Robathan, Andrew
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Tyrie, Andrew
Woodward, Shaun
Yeo, Tim

Tellers for the Ayes:


Mr. Peter Atkinson and
Mr. Owen Paterson.


NOES


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Butler, Mrs Christine
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cranston, Ross
Darvill, Keith
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Efford, Clive
Etherington, Bill
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Gale, Roger
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Norman A
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Grieve, Dominic
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hancock, Mike
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Lansley, Andrew
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Leigh, Edward
Lepper, David
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mallaber, Judy
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morley, Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Murphy, Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Palmer, Dr Nick
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Rendel, David
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
St Aubyn, Nick
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Streeter, Gary
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vis, Dr Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)

Tellers for the Noes:


Mr. James Gray and
Mr. Richard Spring.

Question accordingly negatived.

13 Mar 1998 : Column 893

Mr. Leigh: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. At the beginning of the debate, the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster) said that he was minded to accept new clause 18, but, in the recent Division, he did not bother to vote, and encouraged his hon. Friends to vote against it. Does that not portray his casual attitude to the Bill and to the rights of 250,000 people who wish to hunt, and to the situation in Northern Ireland? Why did he not vote for the new clause, having advised the House that he wanted it passed?


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