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Mr. Salmond: The Minister gave the game away. I asked him whether a case could be judged with no Scottish representative on the Judicial Committee. He replied that the Government intend to ensure that that does not happen. They can do that only by political direction on the composition of the body taking the case. He cannot have it both ways.

Mr. McLeish: Grow up.

Mr. Salmond: The Minister says that I should grow up, but let us examine the matter. Either the composition of the Judicial Committee would be such that it would be free to judge such cases with no concern for nationality, background or political influence or the Minister, because he has realised the sensitivity of the situation, wants at least one representative from a Scottish legal background to sit in judgment of such cases. He cannot have it both ways.

I was incredibly surprised, but delighted in some ways, by the naivety of some hon. Members, who talked as if the judicial process were totally removed from politics. Many members of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council held political office and owe their appointment to politics. The Minister presents a political argument

12 May 1998 : Column 213

against a constitutional court and for pure judicial principle in the existing arrangements. However, that does not sustain serious examination.

I have much more sympathy with the hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) and the hon. and learned Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace), who said that, although a constitutional court was necessary, we should perhaps not have such a court as this and should take into account the variety of developments that are taking place. We would have accepted the principle if the Minister had said, "That's exactly what we are going to do; we are going to think about it." However, he did not say that.

The Minister has argued that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council--an archaic, Topsy-like institution--can accommodate such disputes. That is not the case. Its composition does not stand up to serious examination, and in such circumstances my hon. Friends and I shall most certainly press the new clause to a vote.

This is not an independence new clause; it cannot be.

It being two and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of the Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the Order [13 January] and the Resolution [this day], put forth, with the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided: Ayes 8, Noes 388.

Division No. 272
[7.3 pm


Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
Dafis, Cynog
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Llwyd, Elfyn
Salmond, Alex
Swinney, John
Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Alasdair Morgan and
Mr. Andrew Welsh.


Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allan, Richard
Ancram, Rt Hon Mich ael
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Arbuthnot, James
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baldry, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunt, Crispin
Boateng, Paul
Borrow, David
Boswell, Tim
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Julian
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Browne, Desmond
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Butler, Mrs Christine
Butterfill, John
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Canavan, Dennis
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Cash, William
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clappison, James
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Clwyd, Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Collins, Tim
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cran, James
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Curry, Rt Hon David
Dalyell, Tam
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Day, Stephen
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Doran, Frank
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Drew, David
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Faber, David
Fallon, Michael
Fatchett, Derek
Fearn, Ronnie
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam
Galbraith, Sam
Gale, Roger
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St Ives)
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibb, Nick
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Gorrie, Donald
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Hayes, John
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Heald, Oliver
Healey, John
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hunter, Andrew
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jamieson, David
Jenkin, Bernard
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Archy
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Laxton, Bob
Leslie, Christopher
Letwin, Oliver
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Lidington, David
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Livsey, Richard
Lock, David
Loughton, Tim
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLeish, Henry
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Malins, Humfrey
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, Peter
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Mates, Michael
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Norris, Dan
Oaten, Mark
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Organ, Mrs Diana
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Palmer, Dr Nick
Paterson, Owen
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickles, Eric
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pollard, Kerry
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Radice, Giles
Rammell, Bill
Randall, John
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Dr John (Hamilton N)
Rendel, David
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
St Aubyn, Nick
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sawford, Phil
Sayeed, Jonathan
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Shipley, Ms Debra
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spellar, John
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Richard
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stott, Roger
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Swayne, Desmond
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trend, Michael
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tyler, Paul
Tyrie, Andrew
Vaz, Keith
Viggers, Peter
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Wardle, Charles
Wareing, Robert N
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Whittingdale, John
Wicks, Malcolm
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Winnick, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Wray, James
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Noes:

Janet Anderson and
Mr. Jim Dowd.

Question accordingly negatived.

12 May 1998 : Column 216

Schedule 1

Constituencies, regions and regional members

Mr. Wallace: I beg to move amendment No. 61, in page 53, line 9, at end insert--

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