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Mr. Salmond: The hon. Gentleman rests his case too much on that argument. I once worked for the Royal Bank of Scotland, where, for example, a merchant banker was paid more than the chairman of the bank, although he was a subordinate because of the scale. I am not sure about his argument, but I am sure that, if he is a time and motion man, he must realise that the work load of Members of Parliament here will decrease when the Scottish Parliament is established. On that logical basis, what salary reduction will he suggest, as all the hon. Members here today will not have to do that sort of work in future? Their work loads will decline, and so should their salaries.

Mr. Robertson: We are not certain--because the questions have not yet been answered, we do not know how things will work. We are still searching for an answer to the West Lothian question, so we do not know how the arrangements will work in practice. We shall have to wait and see, but I certainly do not recommend that any Members of this Parliament should have to take any reduction in pay.

Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire): Does my hon. Friend agree that the only Members of Parliament who will be doing significantly less work are Members representing Scottish constituencies who remain at Westminster? North Wiltshire will still demand the same amount of work, but will representing Banff and Buchan in this place require the same amount of work after the establishment of the new Scottish Parliament?

19 May 1998 : Column 770

5.30 pm

Mr. Robertson: The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) will have a reduced work load; nevertheless, I would not suggest that he should take a lower salary.

The public tend to attach importance to how much people are paid; they tend to judge the worth of persons or organisations on the basis of how much income they receive--perhaps the reason why the public do not value Members of this Parliament highly is that we are inadequately paid, but that is another argument. It is important that Members of the Scottish Parliament do not receive higher salaries than Members of the House of Commons. It is important that the salaries they are paid recognise what I maintain will be a lower work load and less responsibility--[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I have to tell the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) that he must not conduct a mini-debate while the main debate is taking place.

Mr. Robertson: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker--the subject is an interesting one.

It is important to preserve the subordinate character of the Scottish Parliament, and to prevent it from becoming a quango that feathers its own nest. It is vital that we preserve the Union, and doing as the amendments propose would be consistent with the precedent set by the European Assembly (Pay and Pensions) Act 1979, to which I referred. Our amendments would achieve all that. They would ensure fairness, and, in doing so, protect the Union. For those reasons, I commend amendments Nos. 22, 23 and 21 to the House.

Mr. Dalyell: In the past five minutes, a whole collective of cats has been let out among the pigeons. Without wishing to talk down to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson), I should warn him not to be naive. He was unfair to the Scottish National party: it is not only the SNP that will take the view he describes, but every Member of the Holyrood Parliament, because it is in the nature of politicians to think that the institution they are in is the important institution. It is not only, or even mainly, a question of financial greed; amour propre will come into it.

If the hon. Gentleman wants an example, I shall give one from my own party. Those who were pro-Europeans listened to Barbara Castle, then the hon. Member for Blackburn, endlessly criticising the Community and the dreadful institution in Strasbourg; but heaven knows, as soon as she herself got there, as Lady Castle of the British delegation, it metamorphosed into a most important institution.

Mr. John M. Taylor: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that Barbara Castle was not just a member of the delegation, but that she was directly elected in 1979?

Mr. Dalyell: We all knew it, very clearly. I say this seriously: it is in the nature of politicians that they will shout for the institution where they themselves happen to be. Do not let us think that it is only the Scottish National party that will do that; it will be every Member of the

19 May 1998 : Column 771

Parliament. They will say, "We are doing more work than those people in Westminster." I shall be mildly interested to see what is the reaction, first, of my colleagues who remain at Westminster and, secondly, of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and of my hon. Friend the Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, both of whom will by that time be Members of another body, because position in that body will have a marvellous way of changing attitudes.

Mr. McLeish: It is instructive to note that today's Scottish edition of the Daily Express contains the following:

who is a member of the consultative steering group--

    "said that if Holyrood was to be taken seriously then salaries had to be comparable with the current Westminster level.

    'It would be undesirable to create a two-tier system of MSPs,' he insisted."

The Government are attempting to set an objective basis for deliberations on this matter, which is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State wrote to the chairman of the Senior Salaries Review Body on25 March asking him to consider and make recommendations regarding salaries, allowances and pensions benefits which would be payable to Members of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive.

In that context, it is unreasonable to lay down in the Bill limitations on the levels of salaries and allowances which the Scottish Parliament can set for its Members, the First Minister or other members of the Scottish Executive, so we strongly resist the amendments. Much of this debate was not about salaries, allowances or pensions, butold Conservatives expressing old prejudices about subordinate Parliaments. That is not the spirit in which we have to move forward.

In the short time left, I commend Government amendments Nos. 151 and 242 to the House.

It being one hour and thirty minutes after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of the Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the Order [13 January] and the Resolution [12 May], put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The House divided: Ayes 121, Noes 308.

Division No. 280
[5.35 pm


Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Baldry, Tony
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Butterfill, John
Cash, William
Clappison, James
Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Kensington)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Cran, James
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Day, Stephen
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Duncan Smith, Iain
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, Nigel
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gray, James
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Horam, John
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Moss, Malcolm
Nicholls, Patrick
Norman, Archie
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Ruffley, David
St Aubyn, Nick
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Tyrie, Andrew
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Woodward, Shaun
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George

Tellers for the Ayes:

Sir David Madel and
Mr. Oliver Heald.


Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Austin, John
Baker, Norman
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Benton, Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Boateng, Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom
Brand, Dr Peter
Breed, Colin
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Caplin, Ivor
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Ms Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Denham, John
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Fearn, Ronnie
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St Ives)
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Gorrie, Donald
Grant, Bernie
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet
Harris, Dr Evan
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keetch, Paul
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Kirkwood, Archy
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Leslie, Christopher
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McCartney, Ian (Makerfield)
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McLeish, Henry
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Primarolo, Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Radice, Giles
Rammell, Bill
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Dr John (Hamilton N)
Rendel, David
Robertson, Rt Hon George
(Hamilton S)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salmond, Alex
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Welsh, Andrew
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Willis, Phil
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wise, Audrey
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Jon Owen Jones and
Mr. David Clelland.

Question accordingly negatived.

19 May 1998 : Column 774

Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.

Amendments made: No. 151, in page 35, line 32, leave out 'or other place' and insert 'employment or other post'.

No. 49, in page 35, line 43, leave out 'addressed to' and insert 'conferring functions on' .--[Mr. McFall.]

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