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Mr. Ingram: I hope that my hon. Friend is not saying that I am wasting a lot of the Committee's time. I am genuinely trying to ensure that there is clear understanding of what is entailed, so that there is no misrepresentation outside the House and no attempt to say that the Government are doing something that is against the best interests not only of those who may be released, but of people in the wider community, of whose best interests we must always take full consideration.

My hon. Friend makes the point well. A person may be released because he is a member of an organisation that satisfies the criteria in the Bill, but if it no longer satisfies the criteria and he is found to be supporting it, he will go back inside--he will be recalled. The protection is clearly present.

Mr. Peter Robinson: The Minister said that, while he understood the general principle that I was discussing, the thrust of his opposition was that an individual who had been released may no longer be associated with an organisation; indeed, he may be publicly opposing it. Surely it would be simple, under the clause, for the case to be heard by the commissioners. At least at that point, the police would not have to prove a case against that individual to get him back into gaol. It would be for the commissioners to determine whether there was sufficient evidence to disconnect an individual who had been convicted in respect of terrorist crimes from the organisation of which he had been a part.

Mr. Ingram: I do not want a dialogue to develop between myself and the hon. Gentleman--I have

17 Jun 1998 : Column 447

explained the situation. I can understand why people say, "Once a member, always a member. If the organisation breaches the terms of the legislation, everyone should be back inside." I have tried to explain, however, why that is wrong in detail and wrong in terms of the ECHR. There is not much more to be gained from further debate on the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Belfast, East. I shall not ask hon. Members to support it.

The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Ross) again referred to press speculation. We do not respond to press speculation. Any judgments in relation to security issues are based on the best advice received--not on advice from anonymous sources who may or may not be privy to information, and who have spoken to the press and put their own spin on it. Those matters are sensitive and delicate when one is dealing with intelligence information, and it is better to be right than to fly off at a tangent, as so many people do when they read something in the press. It is better to be balanced and responsible when dealing with such issues.

I have no intention of accepting amendments Nos. 12 and 13--we have had that debate--and I have no intention of accepting amendment No. 44. I hope that the hon. Member for Bracknell will withdraw his amendments.

Mr. MacKay: I beg to ask leave to withdraw amendments Nos. 12 and 13.

The First Deputy Chairman: Order. Amendment No. 13 is grouped with amendment No. 12. However, the hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley), who tabled amendment No. 44, can propose that it be put--although there can be no debate on it, because the amendments are grouped together.

Rev. Ian Paisley: Can the Committee vote on my amendment?

The First Deputy Chairman: The hon. Gentleman can have a vote, although I am not inviting him to do so.

Mr. MacKay: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The First Deputy Chairman: We must now deal with amendment No. 44.

Amendment proposed: No. 44, in page 4, line 39, at end insert--

'(d) that any organisation which at the time of his release under this Act he supported, but which was not then specified as a terrorist organisation under section 3(8), has not subsequently been specified as such an organisation under that section.'.--[Rev. Ian Paisley.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:--

The Committee divided: Ayes 9, Noes 280.

Division No. 308
[8.45 pm


Casale, Roger
Donaldson, Jeffrey
Forsythe, Clifford
Hunter, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
Norris, Dan
Paisley, Rev Ian
Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. William Thompson and
Mr. Peter Robinson.


Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Baker, Norman
Banks, Tony
Barron, Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnett, John
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Stephen
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Canavan, Dennis
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Church, Ms Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cranston, Ross
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davies, Rt Hon Ron (Caerphilly)
Dawson, Hilton
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Gorrie, Donald
Grant, Bernie
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Grogan, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harris, Dr Evan
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Home Robertson, John
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keetch, Paul
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Laxton, Bob
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Livsey, Richard
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Love, Andrew
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McCartney, Ian (Makerfield)
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Paul (Torfaen)
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Radice, Giles
Raynsford, Nick
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Rendel, David
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stott, Roger
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Willis, Phil
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)

Tellers for the Noes:

Janet Anderson and
Mr. Jon Owen Jones.

Question accordingly negatived.

17 Jun 1998 : Column 449

Mr. Ingram: I beg to move amendment No. 82, in page 5, leave out line 4 and insert--

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