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Mr. John D. Taylor: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. McNamara: I am willing to give way to the right hon. Gentleman, but I thought that the Committee wanted to make progress.
Mr. John D. Taylor: I am interested by the hon. Gentleman's argument that using the term "Republic of Ireland"--which is, of course, the correct constitutional name for the country concerned--in some way changes the agreement, because the agreement refers to the Government of Ireland. Does the hon. Gentleman agree, as his argument suggests, that, as "Northern Ireland" is the description of my part of the United Kingdom that is used in the agreement, those who now refer to it simply as "the north of Ireland" are changing the terms of the agreement?
Mr. McNamara: If it is referred to as Northern Ireland in the agreement, it should be referred to as Northern Ireland in the Bill.
Mr. Paul Murphy: I apologise to the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble). I was carried away in the last debate, but I shall undoubtedly talk to him about the matters that he raised.
When I first took up my Northern Ireland post, I was struck by the importance of terminology. I think that terminology is more important in Northern Ireland than in any other part of the United Kingdom. I remember going to Derry city council, in the town of Londonderry, and hoping not to use any name during a two-hour meeting, because it is difficult to please everyone.
In this instance, we cannot accept the amendments. Let me explain why. The most important reason is this. During the talks that led to the agreement, there was an understanding between the two Governments that this Government would refer to "the Government of Ireland"--which they can do: as the right hon. Member for Upper Bann said, under the 1949 Act that is permissible, although not mandatory. Significantly, however, we referred to "the Government of Ireland" because that is how the Irish Government described themselves. Even more significantly, the Irish
Government, for the first time ever, described our Government as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. As a result, that is contained in the declaratory aspects of the Bill.
Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield):
Is the declaration in the agreement and that terminology in the legislation that went before the Dail in Dublin?
Mr. Murphy:
I shall come back to the hon. Gentleman with an answer to that. The legislation before the Dail is different from this Bill.
During the talks that led to the agreement, the Irish Government, for the first time ever, referred to our Government as I have just described.
Mr. John D. Taylor:
Clause 1(2) does not refer to the "Government of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", as the Minister has just implied. It refers to the "Government of the United Kingdom."
Mr. Murphy:
During the talks and in the agreement, the Irish Government used that terminology for the first time ever. The right hon. Gentleman knows that that terminology was used during the negotiations.
Mr. Thompson:
Do not the facts that the Minister has revealed to the House give credence to the view held by many people in Northern Ireland that the Government want to detach Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom, and that that is why they agreed to this change? Rather than refer to the Republic of Ireland, the Bill refers to Ireland. Surely that revelation will show to the people of Northern Ireland that the real basis of the agreement and this legislation is eventually to detach Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom.
Mr. Murphy:
That is a load of nonsense. That is not the case. The debate has centred on the principle of consent. It is for the people of Northern Ireland to decide whether they wish to remain within the United Kingdom or to become part of a united Ireland.
Mr. Thompson:
The Minister says that it is up to the people of Northern Ireland, but the Government wish that the people of Northern Ireland would leave the United Kingdom.
Mr. Murphy:
We have not said anything of the sort. It is for the people of Northern Ireland to decide their destiny and their future. If the majority of the people want to be British citizens, so be it. That is the purpose of the agreement.
The right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) made a valid point about the clause. I draw his attention to the fact that clause 1 is a straight word-for-word transfer from the agreement into the Bill. The British-Irish agreement, which is at the back of the Belfast agreement, states:
Mr. Peter Robinson:
The Minister's remarks will cause great consternation in Northern Ireland. The Government
Mr. Murphy:
That was not secret, because a copy of the agreement went to every house in Northern Ireland. Perhaps it did not go to the hon. Gentleman's house. It says in big letters:
Mr. John D. Taylor:
The Minister is breaching the agreement. He has quoted the agreement correctly, but the legislation does not refer to the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: it merely refers to the Government of the United Kingdom, so the Minister is breaching the agreement.
Mr. Murphy:
Clause 1 is a transfer word for word from the agreement. The international agreement that is attached to the Belfast agreement refers to the
Mr. Murphy:
I am quite convinced that it is the same, but I shall write to the hon. Gentleman about that.
Whatever the geographical misunderstanding--there may be a misunderstanding about what is meant by the term "Ireland"--in the rest of the legislation we shall refer to the Republic of Ireland to distinguish it from Northern Ireland. That is clear. As I have said, the words in clause 1 are straight from the agreement, word for word. I hope that hon. Members understand the significance of the fact that the Irish Government have at last recognised that the United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland. That was a significant attachment. [Interruption.] There are no secret deals or secret this or that in any of this.
Mr. Grieve:
I completely understand the Minister's point and the reasons for the use of the term Government of Ireland. He has satisfied me on that. It is right, is it not, that, in the preliminary part of the Bill, it would be perfectly possible to define the United Kingdom as being the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland without in any way impinging upon the wording of the agreement? It may be argued that that is an exercise in semantics, but if it provided reassurance it could properly be done at a later stage of the Bill's progress.
Mr. Murphy:
We shall check on some of the points that have been made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield
Mrs. Fyfe:
Does my hon. Friend agree that at international bodies such as the United Nations, the European Union and the Council of Europe, a placard in front of our delegation simply stating "United Kingdom" is understood to mean Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
Mr. Murphy:
I am not sure that everybody understands that. I returned from Belfast some weeks ago by air--I shall not say by which company--and on arrival in Heathrow we saw a sign stating "Welcome to the United Kingdom". I am sure we all regard that as quite improper.
Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South):
I understand the Minister's difficulties. Many people think that the United Kingdom is England. The hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Temple-Morris) may recall that at the Inter-Parliamentary Union conference in Ottawa, delegates from the Republic of Ireland moved that in the IPU the title United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should be changed to the United Kingdom. That was adopted by a majority vote, against the wishes of the British delegates and others. As the Minister said, we must be careful. When we use titles, we should use them correctly.
"AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND".
That is the international aspect of the agreement.
"AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND".
It is as clear as crystal, and is in the international agreement attached to the Belfast agreement, a copy of which went through every letter box in every house in the Province of Northern Ireland.
"United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland".
Rev. Ian Paisley:
Will the Minister bring to the Dispatch Box the southern Ireland version of the agreement and read out what is in it? He has read out what is in his: tell us what is in the other version.
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