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7.23 pm
Mr. Frank Cook (Stockton, North): It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), who has such an illustrious track record in defence studies. I did not have the pleasure of serving with him on the Defence Committee--I had to relinquish that post some 12 months ago. For the record and for the information of newer Members, perhaps I should record my positions.
I represent the House in the parliamentary assembly of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, and have done ever since being appointed in 1991, at its
outset. I also represent the House as an elected delegate to the North Atlantic Assembly, on which I am the vice-chairman of the defence and security committee and the assembly's special rapporteur on the reform of the Russian armed services. My second interim report on that topic will be presented in Edinburgh. I therefore have some knowledge of defence matters.
The strategic defence review is a huge topic, to which one cannot do justice in 10 minutes. I must be selective, so I shall start with the reserve forces. Seven years ago, I was the author of the report on reserve forces to the North Atlantic Assembly. Much has been said about them already, which I shall not repeat. We know about the military needs and the social needs. In the north-east, many young men and, indeed, young women have been saved from anti-social behaviour by the opportunities presented by the programme of training, annual camp and so on. That would be a sorry loss to society, not only to military resource. Those young people are a source of recruitment and support for the cadet force.
I have to agree in part with the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) about levels. I do not want to descend into pointless argument setting region against region--north-east against north-west--about the imbalance in cuts. That does not make sense to me. The right hon. Gentleman is right to speak about levels.
The Minister of State today was kind enough to give us a pitch of 40,000 reservists. That is about 35 per cent. of the size of the regular force. I remain to be convinced that a 35 per cent. reserve force will be adequate, bearing in mind the demands that will be made of our forces by crisis management, peacekeeping, peace enforcement and so on, especially when nations have in their armouries weapons of mass destruction that can have an enormous impact on regular forces with very little warning.
I urge the Minister to think again. He has given us the idea that there is still some way to go, and that decisions have yet to be made. I say to him, "Please, for God's sake, think clearly when you do this, and do not saddle us with only a 35 per cent. reserve force."
The reserves are good at supporting the cadet forces. The Minister mentioned sea cadets. The sea cadets in Stockton are based on HMS Kellington, a counter-mines warfare vessel that is somewhat redundant and has been in the River Tees for well over 10 years--it is grounded on the bottom. It is kept in good order. A large sum of money has been spent over those 10 years. The vessel is in good nick, unlike other vessels that were lent out to sea cadet forces elsewhere in the country, which were not maintained to suitable standard.
Since the vessel was placed in its present position, well sited right in the centre of town, a source of pride in the community, we have built a bridge down river, the Princess Diana bridge. If the counter-mines vessel were moved, all the superstructure and probably the top half of the hull would have to be taken off it. Worse than that, further down is the Tees barrage, whose existence I successfully negotiated through the House, the first moves having been made by Lord Dormand in the other place. Even if it were possible to get the vessel under the bridge, it could not go through the lock because it is too broad in the beam. However, the Ministry of Defence wants it back. It says, "If you won't give us it back you will have to pay for it." We are willing to pay for it and we have
offered the MOD 5,000 quid. If it does not get 5,000 quid, what will it do about it? It is mind boggling. It is the sort of thing that Michael Bentine made his reputation on.
I am appealing to the Minister of State--[Interruption.] Joking aside, this is serious. I am appealing to my hon. Friend to come to my constituency. I am president of the sea cadet corps and I would love to take my hon. Friend up the gangplank to the tune of the bosun's pipe to visit the ship to see how well it is maintained. That is a serious request.
Time is limited and I am on five minutes, which means that I must move on. I agree with the plea for northern command made by my hon. Friend the Member for City of York (Mr. Bayley). It seems crazy that, with force strength of 10,500 in northern England and 2,500 in Scotland, we should want to move a two-star general up to Scotland. If 80 per cent. of the force is in northern England, that does not seem sensible to me, despite all the arguments about modern communications and the like, which cut both ways.
When I was in the Army, I liked nothing better than to see my top brass walking in my camp, giving me pride that they had an interest in me. That is a damned sight easier for a general to do at Catterick and the like than in Edinburgh. Let Scotland have its kilt-wearing colonel or whatever up there, but we want York.
The Minister was kind enough today to mention the Gulf veterans. That was a source of great reassurance to me. I commend him for his commitment, because it is long overdue. However, I must talk about another commitment which is also long overdue, and that is to the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association. For years, the association has been patted on the head by successive Governments and told by the National Radiological Protection Board that there was no link between the veterans' incredibly high incidence of disability in their offspring, as well as death, and the role that they performed in serving the Crown. I do not accept that. I think that the evidence is damning. It is about time that there was a proper review of it. I am asking my hon. Friend, not for the first time: "Let us have a review of the British nuclear test veterans' circumstances in the same way that there is to be a further review of the Gulf veterans."
My role in the North Atlantic Assembly demands that I mix with people from central Europe, eastern Europe and the Russian Federation in what we call Rose-Roth seminars. The purpose of these seminars is to acquaint officials, military people and politicians with the way in which western democracy works, with our procedures and with the form that they take. We seek to acquaint them with how to maintain civil control over a military establishment.
A form of multinational North Atlantic-NATO team conducts these inquiries, so the Brits are only part of the process. Our allies and the learners--the students--find it incredible that we have so little control over defence matters. We have five days of debate under the normal set-up in the House, if we are lucky. There are two days on the defence estimates, a debate that is taking place now under the strategic review. We have three single-force debates, if we are lucky. There is no comment about joint operations or joint services. Why we are treating the services singly when we are trying to put them together is another question in my head.
My appeal is that we approach our defence debates more sensibly in future and allow ourselves in the Chamber a measure of democracy that allows us to take a foot in decision making so that it is not a matter, at the end of tonight's debate, of taking the strategic review lock, stock and barrel. I ask that we be allowed to examine separate sections of it and make decisions.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. Mrs. Ewing.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray):
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook), whose passion and knowledge on defence subjects is highly regarded throughout the House. I endorse everything that he has said, particularly about the nuclear test veterans. The campaign on their behalf has been going on for a long time and deserves recognition at this stage. It will be interesting to see whether there is a response.
I am conscious that I have only a short time to speak in the debate. I welcome the concept of a strategic review. Many people have told me, as a Member with many interests in defence matters, that it was all so much easier when there was an iron curtain, when we knew where the enemy was and where we were pointing our weapons. What was needed then was to work out a strategy. I agree with that. I am talking of people who may not be able to speak out publicly on these issues, but perhaps want Members such as me to make their view clear.
It is important that in this debate, which I have listened to and participated in yesterday and today, we remember that we are talking about a strategic review. It seems that many points have been directed to practical issues rather than strategic ones.
We must look towards the next century, and I believe that the points of conflict that will arise will be new. We can look back over the 20th century and analyse the history of that period, but it seems that in future the points of conflict will be new. Unfortunately, however as in the Balkans, some are redolent with history. There is uncertainty.
Having listened to some of the contributions to the debate, I find it worrying that many Members seem to feel that defence policy must be written in tablets of stone, never ever to be changed. It is important that we focus on rapid reaction and jointery, an awkward new word which has crept into the vocabulary of defence debates.
The interest stimulated by the review is in itself interesting. Not only defence personnel have written or spoken to me; people have contacted me from voluntary organisations and medical associations, for example. Various interest groups in employment, exporting and training have been involved. All those people have made links with us as Members to ensure that decisions made as a result of the review take full cognisance of society's attitude to it.
It is important that some people have argued against the development of, for example, the Western European Union and the common foreign and security policy. They are looking back as if all the maps of the world are still painted pink. This is where strategy comes in because I believe that all negotiations must be discussed with our partners within NATO, the European Union and other organisations. We should try to work forward into an area where we shall be talking about strategic peace reviews rather than strategic defence reviews.
It is rather sad that antagonistic comments were made about the European Union yesterday and, indeed, today. It seemed to many people that we were talking of a deadly plague that had to be avoided at all costs.
Like the hon. Member for Stockton, North, I do not believe that strategy is dependent on a few stylised debates in the House. The hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell) made a rather sad jibe that was below his normal standard. My party mentioned to him yesterday that I would refer to him. Apart from the gross inaccuracy of what he said, I do not think it is right that we measure our concern for our defence personnel by always sitting on the green Benches.
Concern for our defence personnel and how our defence policy develops goes far beyond stylised debates in the House during which votes are rare and not all aspects of policy are investigated. As a constituency Member representing many defence personnel, I know that the issues involve the Benefits Agency, the Defence Housing Executive, education for children--a point I raised during the Minister's opening speech--war veterans, war widows, the voting rights of those posted abroad and the salaries of, for example, MAEops--major aeronautical engineer operators--who are critical in the maintenance of the RAF. All that fits into a general pattern of involvement. If we are to have committed men and women in our forces, we need not only occasional speeches but consistent communication with them and advocacy on their behalf in peace as well as when they are on alert or on duty.
Like other hon. Members, I want to talk about the Territorial Army, and I make no apology for doing so. The hon. Member for Stockton, North referred to kilts--and here am I, a woman wearing trousers. Perhaps I should have worn my kilt to keep him happy. But as a Member of Parliament from the highlands and the Grampian area, I am concerned about what is happening to the TA in Scotland.
Little reference has been made to the Royal Engineers, an important aspect of the TA, certainly in the north of Scotland. In my constituency, 236 Squadron is based at Kinloss, and 237 Squadron at Lossiemouth. During last year's flooding in my constituency, those squadrons did invaluable work. In my discussions with them, I met young unemployed people who had found a dignity in participating in the work of the Royal Engineers. Others who were employed found that being out and about with the TA one day a week with the acceptance of their employers was important in giving them a different attitude to life. Such activities have an important effect on the psyche of people involved with those organisations.
The Regular Army appears to want to increase the capability of the Royal Engineers, but that may take until 2002, so why on earth scrap two organisations with the best training capability north of the border? There will be no Royal Engineers north of the M62. Given the nature of our area and the sparsity of its population, communication between those organisations and civilians is vital, particularly at times of crisis but also when they are assisting generally within the community.
7.34 pm
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