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Mr. Bob Russell (Colchester): Who wrote this speech?

Mr. Robathan: We will have a chance to hear the hon. Gentleman's pearls of wisdom later. If they are up to his normal standard, I do not expect that many of us will stay awake.

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The armed forces are accused of being a bastion of privilege. I spent 15 years in the armed forces, and I can assure hon. Members that it was not a privilege to be paid as I was. Last year, the Secretary of State attacked the fact that there was a disproportionate number of public school officers in the Army. That may be true; I have no idea, because I have not counted them. The Under-Secretary of State, or perhaps the Prime Minister, could have been such a public school officer. I suspect, too, that there may be a disproportionate number of Oxbridge officers in the armed forces: again, the Under-Secretary of State, or the Prime Minister, could have been such officers.

It should not be a matter of shame that people of quality, in open competition, join the armed forces. There is a wide variety of all types of people at all ranks in the armed forces, and there always has been. We want quality, and currently we get it. If we discriminate, as the Secretary of State suggested, against public school education, it will reveal more about envy and the nature of new Labour than about anything else. I believe that H. Jones was an Etonian. Would he have been awarded the Victoria Cross by this Government for dying in battle? I have no idea.

Mr. Mike Gapes (Ilford, South): Oh, come on.

Mr. Robathan: It was the Secretary of State, not I, who raised the question.

Mr. Hilton Dawson (Lancaster and Wyre): Disgraceful.

Mr. Robathan: Perhaps, when he gets the chance to speak, the hon. Gentleman will illuminate me about what was disgraceful about that.

There are excellent service men and women, and indeed senior officers, of all backgrounds, and we recruit throughout society, but the armed forces demand certain standards. Those standards, which have been praised to the rooftops today, include not only education but old-fashioned values that are perhaps more evident in some schools than in others--not solely public schools, I hasten to add.

The Minister for the Armed Forces spoke about the employment of women in the armed forces, and the question exercises many Labour Members. I would have thought that it was self-evident that women are physiologically different from men, and usually less strong. That is not in any way damning, but it is true. I am glad to say that women are generally temperamentally different from men, and less aggressive, but in some parts of the armed forces physical strength and aggression are of the utmost importance, and it is ludicrous to deny it.

I welcome women in many parts of the armed forces. In the second world war, and all other recent wars, women have filled many roles extremely well and have been of the utmost importance in the war effort, but I and many others do not want women to be in fighting units with bayonets fixed. Killing and being killed--that is why one fixes a bayonet--is, I consider, an unsuitable role for women.

The Government have opened up the artillery to women. Anyone who has ever carried artillery ammunition will know what a grave error that may prove

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to be. A few years ago, a warrant officer in charge of a workshop in Bosnia said that he was happy to have women in his team, but that, unfortunately, whenever it came to taking a power pack--an engine--out of a Warrior, the men had to do it because the women were simply not strong enough. I similarly recall a naval officer saying that women were very good at reading radar but that when it came to realistic exercises and dragging injured comrades out of damaged areas they were generally simply not strong enough.

A female Tornado pilot has recently gone on maternity leave. I am absolutely delighted for her and her husband, and I am sure that she is an excellent pilot, but perhaps the Minister can explain what happens if we go to war--which is what we have Tornados for--and several pilots are on maternity leave? Other leave gets cancelled, but the imminent arrival of a baby is not quite the same.

Much of the politically correct assault on the ethos of the armed forces is motivated by dislike of the old-fashioned, traditional nature of the services and isnot welcomed by armed forces personnel. Those old-fashioned values are admired by people in other countries and are partly responsible for the effectiveness of our armed forces.

The Government talk of modern forces for the modern world, and nobody wants antiquated forces--do we have them in Bosnia; did we have them in the Falklands?--but modernisation is desirable only where it is necessary. Many of the personnel policies may harm--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.

8.38 pm

Mr. Hilton Dawson (Lancaster and Wyre): It is a real pleasure to take part in this debate, which has been interesting and important. I say with real sadness that I am sorry to follow the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan), who did his best to give us a caricature of the armed forces that could only play into the hands of those who are opposed to them. He used this precious opportunity to debate one of the most important aspects of the Government's and the country's policy to parade a host of simple prejudices. Having said that, I think that the contributions from hon. Members from both sides of the House have been excellent, thoughtful and knowledgeable. The House clearly contains hon. Members with tremendous direct experience of the armed forces as well as those with long experience of Committees that have made important decisions on the armed forces.

I have to confess that I have never had any desire whatever to join the armed forces or any uniformed organisation. I do not believe that that is a matter for shame: it is perfectly acceptable. I am aware that I, in common with many other people, am a member of the first generation this century which has not had to fight in France. I am grateful to the women and the men of our armed forces who have kept me safe, and I assure the House that I have an extreme personal interest in maintaining that situation.

I welcome the strategic defence review. It is an excellent document which seems to line defence policy up, albeit implicitly, with foreign policy, and to make some important points about the future and set a clear

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direction. I am also prompted to say that by the views of constituents, many of whom have great experience of the armed forces, including serving personnel. Many of those people, I would guess, are not inveterate Labour supporters, but they have told me in recent weeks that they regard the SDR as a serious piece of work that sets out a coherent vision for the armed forces of the future. I might say that they did not feel the same about other reviews in recent years. The review reflects a world situation that differs in many ways from that of the recent past, and is perhaps now more threatening. The changed world situation will require a new approach.

My particular constituency interest is in the TA, which will need to develop new and special skills; to be highly responsive and extremely flexible; to integrate further with the Regular Army; to go into action at short notice; and to develop a capacity for joint operations. I am sure that the TA can do all that. Conservative Members have expressed qualms about the TA being set challenging efficiency targets, but they seem fine to me. All public services should be set challenging efficiency targets and be able to justify what they do.

Yesterday, Conservative Members expressed qualms about selective compulsory call-up. I welcome that, because it is important if we are to involve properly skilled people in the TA who are ready at the drop of a hat to serve in difficult situations. Business should support that and be willing to allow staff to serve, because the partnership with the TA gives much back to business. We have also heard qualms expressed about equal opportunities, but I profoundly believe that all people should have the opportunity to serve their country to the best of their ability.

I am hopelessly biased in favour of Lancaster, but I believe that what happens to the TA in Lancaster has important implications for defence policy. However, the fact that I think that Lancaster is the finest city in the land does not mean that I am so arrogant as to think that other areas do not have important links with the TA. In Lancaster, we have the headquarters of the 4th Battalion, King's Own Royal Border Regiment and a detachment of 208 Field Hospital. I do not want to get bogged down in history, because this debate is about the future, but it is important to say that the King's Own was formed in 1680 and has a proud and distinguished record. The regimental museum is in Lancaster and the people there have family traditions connected with the regiment. Commitments to the armed forces in Lancaster have been carried down through generations. The King's Own, the TA and the armed forces are respected and have a valued place in the city of Lancaster. That commitment is felt by business, by local authorities and by me.

I am disturbed by the prospect that UK Land Command may move to Scotland. Although it is based in York, which causes us problems in Lancaster, it has significance for the north of England. Indeed, I remind hon. Members that 39 per cent. of the armed forces are recruited from that area. We have an excellent recruiting ground in Lancaster. The King's Own has 175 part-time soldiers, but it is also good at recruiting to the Regular Army, especially to Signals and Engineers. The King's Own has excellent links with the Regular Army and 10 soldiers recently served with distinction in Bosnia as part of a peace support operation. Several more are now serving as regulars and I am proud that people from the city that I am privileged to represent have played an important role in peacekeeping in the dreadful situation in Bosnia.

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As I have said, we also have a detachment of 208 Field Hospital and we have heard that the Government are keen on more resources for Army medical facilities. We have modern facilities, an up-to-date barracks and an excellent Army cadet force, which trains and supports young people interested in a career in the Regular Army. We also have good links with the university Officer Training Corps. I would be perturbed if Lancaster did not have a big part to play in supporting the future defence objectives of the TA, because the community understands the role that it performs.

Lancaster is at the heart of the north-west region and we have excellent communication links. We work well together with other companies and the detachment of the King's Own in Cumbria. I do not make a plea for no change, because I am convinced that the exceptional people in Lancaster and in the armed forces will face up to change and deal well with whatever it brings. The armed forces based in Lancaster that I have mentioned have a positive role to play in the Army in the north-west and in the highly skilled, responsive Territorial Army of the future.


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