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Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North): I shall be brief, as I know that other hon. Members wish to speak. I wish to raise two points, but first I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his colleagues on the report. It is remarkable how universally the broad thrust of the recommendations has been welcomed.

I endorse the comments of the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Bell) about the impact of changes to the Territorial Army in the north-west, especially in my constituency. In Bury, North we have C company of the 4th Battalion of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, which consists of 100 men and women. It has strong connections with the former Lancashire Fusiliers. If the unit were to go following the SDR, it would bring to an end a 100-year link between the Lancashire Fusiliers and Bury. The Fusiliers have a distinguished reputation and fought in most of the major battles at the end of the last century and throughout this century. I would fight strongly to retain that link and the present TA unit in Bury.

I endorse the comments of other hon. Members who have drawn attention to the importance of the TA not only for the skills that it develops in the men and women who join but for the wider benefits that it brings to the local community. The TA in Bury is strongly linked to wider community activities.

There are two particular reasons for wanting to make a special case for my TA unit. Although it is only one of 55 units in the north-west, within the Queen's Lancashire Regiment area the TA unit in Bury is responsible for 25 per cent. of recruitment. Its recruitment record is outstanding. As successive hon. Members have commented, recruitment will be a continuing issue for the armed forces.

The location of the TA is crucial. The TA in Bury meets in the drill hall, which is called the castle armoury. The castle armoury is an important listed building which is over 100 years old. It also houses the area headquarters of the Air Training Corps and the Army Cadet Force. I believe that the castle armoury is unique in that it is not owned by the MOD. The argument that there are capital receipts to be obtained by closing down some TA centres does not apply in this case. It is owned by a board of trustees which is bound to manage the building on behalf of the people of Bury. If the MOD revenue funds were pulled out, it would be in dire straits.

The castle armoury is the subject of an exciting development plan that would involve moving the current Fusiliers' regimental museum from its present inadequate headquarters into the castle armoury. It is located in the centre of the town, which makes it strategically important in developing the attraction of the museum for local schools and visitors. I hope that the Minister will look carefully at the impact that the changes to the TA will have on the unit of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment in Bury.

My next point follows the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Savidge) about weapons of mass destruction. I welcome the fact that the SDR makes changes to the deployment of Trident. It reduces the number of warheads and brings about a new transparency in our policy towards fissile material, but there are other beneficial changes which could be made to the deployment of Trident. We have not quite adjusted to the post-cold war era. It was interesting that,

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in his opening remarks, my hon. Friend the Minister justified the reduction in TA numbers by saying that we had to move away from the cold war era and that the present numbers of the TA, representing 50 per cent. of the total armed forces, were excessive. However, I am not sure that we have extended that analogy to the deployment of Trident.

Weapons of mass destruction are sensitive, and things cannot move too quickly. The Government have supported important changes including the non- proliferation treaty and the comprehensive test ban treaty, which are steps in the right direction. We desperately need a fissile material cut-off treaty and I hope that the Government will direct their attention to that in the near future.

The most important point is this: our dilemma over weapons of mass destruction is that we must view them as either an unfortunate legacy or a necessary evil. The logic of seeing them as a necessary evil is that every other nation in the European Union and, arguably, every other nation in the world, would be more secure with them. I challenge every Opposition Member to argue that the world is a safer place because India and Pakistan now have nuclear weapons. My constituents who have friends and family in Kashmir do not feel safer because of the nuclear weapons in India and Pakistan.

We have to think through the logic of the argument and accept that, if we were designing from scratch a strategic defence policy for Britain, at this point in history it is highly unlikely that we would choose Trident as the main plank of our defence because it does not match up to the defence commitments that we are likely to face. The thrust of the SDR points to the importance of rapid deployment forces in small-scale regional conflicts in different parts of the world where Trident is useless. It was of no use in the Falklands, the Gulf war or Bosnia, and it is certainly of no use in Kosovo.

I strongly congratulate the Government on the progress achieved, but I hope that they will remember the second part of the Labour manifesto commitment, which was not simply to maintain Trident but continuously to work for a world free of nuclear weapons.

9.15 pm

Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire): How refreshing it is to follow someone like the hon. Member for Bury, North (Mr. Chaytor). At the end of his remarks we saw a glimpse of good old Labour, behind which lies a Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament history. An hon. Friend made the comment that the hon. Gentleman's local Territorial Army regiment, the QLR, is known in the Army as "the Queen's last resort" or even "Quick let's run".

There are two curious aspects to the debate. First, every Member who has spoken has given a passionate defence of his local Territorial Army regiment. One could almost argue that the two-day debate has primarily been about the Territorial Army. Each hon. Member has then said how fine is the SDR overall, ignoring the fact that it includes a reduction in the TA from 59,000 soldiers to 49,000, or 37,000 if we remove the Officer Training Corps, whose members cannot serve overseas. Those two points do not add up. One cannot preserve one's home Territorial Army regiment while saying broadly that the SDR has got it right.

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The second conundrum about the debate is that almost every Labour Member has gone to great lengths to say that the defence chiefs have supported the SDR throughout. They would, wouldn't they? It would be surprising if Ministers said, "We hereby present the SDR, and the defence chiefs don't agree with us." Defence chiefs are unlikely to want to disagree with a new Labour Government. They will be nice to their bosses in ministerial offices and are unlikely to voice their criticisms in public or in private. However, I have heard one or two defence chiefs mumbling into their drink at service dinners. [Hon. Members: "Into their drink?"] Into their non-alcoholic drink, of course.

I take those remarks by Labour Members with a pinch of salt. The defence chiefs who have said that they are most in favour of the SDR are those from the Regular Army. Again, they would, wouldn't they? The Regular Army has done very well under the SDR. What have the bosses of the Territorial Army had to say about it? Have they been as fulsome in their praise of the SDR? I suspect that they have not, not least because the senior Territorial Army officer in the MOD is a brigadier, who is badly outranked by all the Regular Army officers who have been arguing their case. That is the second puzzle of the SDR.

There are good parts of the SDR, and most of my hon. Friends have gone to great lengths to point out that there is much to be said in its favour. The only strange point is that most of the good parts are built solidly on the principles laid down by the previous Government. The Government are building on Conservative principles.

It may be instructive to consider one little town in my constituency that encapsulates the good and bad parts of the SDR. Forty-two per cent. of Corsham is dependent on defence and almost every aspect of defence is represented there. It is the home of 2 (Signals) Brigade, 66 per cent. of which is made up of Territorial Army soldiers. I suspect that they will probably survive under the SDR because they are specialist signallers.

Corsham is the home of the Defence Communications Services Agency, which was set up to handle communications and information technology for all three services. Jointery is one of the best points to come out of the SDR, and the DCSA is one of the best examples of that. I challenge the Government to go one step further. The DCSA is housed in 1944 underground bunkers, which are not proof against nuclear war or any other major attack. If we are to give all service communications to one organisation in Corsham--I welcome the fact that we are--the Government must finance the rebuilding which is needed urgently. Corsham is also the home of Leafield Engineering, which makes one of the components essential to the construction of the Raytheon short air-to-air missile for the Eurofighter. I challenge the Government to put their money where their mouth is and stick with the best product available at the best price available--which I understand comes from Corsham.

Corsham is odd in that it is the location of Army, Navy and RAF bases. It is probably unique in having all three services based in one small town. I think that Royal Navy Copenacre is situated further inland than any other naval base. A significant number of sites are about to be made redundant and the Army and the MOD have taken some time deciding whether to sell those sites--I am thinking particularly of RAF bases Kemble, Rudloe Manor and Spring Quarry. Those three bases are now redundant and

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I ask the Minister to progress those sales as quickly as possible. He might also consider the redundant hangars at RAF Hullavington. They would be an ideal site for the Chippenham livestock market, which will be looking for a new home in 2000.

I would prefer the Minister to press ahead with the sale of redundant sites such as that under the SDR rather than looking with greedy eyes at the Territorial Army halls and depots up and down the land. That real estate--some 150 bases and depots around the country--lies behind the Government's proposed cuts in the Territorial Army. It has nothing to do with tactics or the TA: it is about the Government getting their hands on those bases. That is the most damaging thing that the Government could do.

There has been constant comment throughout the debate about the uncertainty in foreign policy and how we do not know where the next threat will come from and how we shall see it off. The Government say such things on the one hand, while, on the other, they cut the only real support for the Regular Army--the Territorial Army. One of the Government's most worrying comments in the SDR is that the Territorial Army supplies only specialist services. They refer convincingly to medics, signallers, gunners and one or two drivers. The Government are correct in that many worthwhile skills are embodied in the Territorial Army, and it is right that they should praise and preserve that aspect of the TA.

However, the Territorial Army infantry is equally important. It is too easy for the Government to say that the infantry is finished, that it is yesterday's thing and belongs in the cold war era, and to see the Territorial Army only as a source of specialist services. Look at what is happening in Bosnia, where every single battalion comprises 15 or 20 Territorial Army soldiers who are serving as infantry soldiers, not as drivers or doctors. Look at what is happening in Northern Ireland, where the 1st Battalion of the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment has just finished a tour of duty. It was supported significantly by the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment based in my constituency, which comprises Territorial Army soldiers.

The 1st RGBW would not have been able to do its job in Northern Ireland with the same effectiveness and efficiency without the support of the 2nd RGBW, whose colours parade I attended recently in Windsor. If the Government do away with those colours and reduce 2nd RGBW to a company or even worse--as I believe they propose--the 1st RGBW will not be able to perform its designated tasks.

The Territorial Army is being reduced from 56,000 to 40,000--or by about 29 per cent. However, it is said on the wires and behind closed doors that the infantry will be cut from 16,000 to 7,100. That is a 55 per cent. cut--a wildly disproportionate cut--in the infantry. The truth is that, in any operation, wherever it might be, it is the poor bloody infantry that does the work. The infantry holds the ground, and it can do that only if it is supported by the Territorial Army infantry.

If the cuts proceed, large areas of the countryside will be entirely devoid of Territorial Army infantry regiments, including the whole of Gloucestershire and Wiltshire. The title of the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment will ring a little hollow--to say the least.

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In a positive spirit, I suggest to the Government a simple alternative approach to the question of the Territorial Army infantry: to have one infantry company per county, throughout the country. By putting that approach into action, the Government would increase the force of Territorial Army infantry soldiers from 7,100 to only 9,000. That could be easily done. It would cost the Government almost nothing in terms of the cuts that they propose, and it would be welcomed throughout the nation, not only because of the contribution that those soldiers make to the defence of the nation, but because, as a result, many depots throughout the country could not be cut.

I welcome so much about the excellent Select Committee report on the SDR--especially what the Committee says about the Territorial Army. I say to the Government, "If you believe in the Select Committee system, if you believe in the Select Committee on Defence, listen to what it says, especially about the Territorial Army, and think carefully about the easy solution--to have one infantry company per county."


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