| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Sir Nicholas Lyell: I am grateful to the Minister for what he has said, and, to some extent, I think that he has sought to meet the criticisms that we have made. The only pity is that the logical outcome of his argument is that he should accept our demand that clause 10 and schedule 2 be dropped from the Bill.
I have done my best to listen very carefully--I notice the Minister frowning at those strong words--but I want to focus on the portion of his speech where he sought
to describe the sort of case where normal parliamentary procedure would be ridden over and where we would go to the remedial order procedure.
If we are going to have that extra parliamentary procedure, which to some extent mirrors our normal parliamentary procedures, why do we not stick with the parliamentary procedures themselves? That has not been properly explained by the Minister or the Home Secretary. This is simply put forward as some sort of reason for hastening things on. It is not good enough.
If the Government are going to wait for 60 days while they consult, the immediate urgency is removed. If in rare cases--I think that it is generally agreed that these cases would be rare--they have to use this fast-track procedure, they need to get on quickly. They are not going to be able to get on much more quickly than if they come to the House.
I have been in the House for nearly 20 years. Time and again, the Opposition have accepted sensible remedial legislation fairly rapidly by consensus. It is rare that sensible and uncontroversial amendments to the law--as a result, for example, of a respected ruling by an international body such as the European Court of Justice in Strasbourg--are made the opportunity for parliamentary hay-making and obstruction. Therefore, to create a new and parallel system that is far less effective than the proper systems of Parliament is wrong in principle.
The Minister sought to find an example where this rapid procedure is needed. I may have missed something that he said, and I hope that he will remind me if I have, but the only example that I thought I heard him mention was the need to amend codes of practice under PACE. Did the Minister mention another example?
Mr. Mike O'Brien:
The other example was some basis on which suspects may be held.
Sir Nicholas Lyell:
Both those examples fall by the wayside, for this reason. As I understand it, and I do not have the legislation at my fingertips, the amendment of codes of practice under PACE can be done by statutory instrument in any event, so that is not a good example to bring forward in answer to the criticism and our suggestions that clause 10 and schedule 2 be removed from the Bill. It is not an answer.
I can see that, if there were some serious criticism of our procedures in relation to the liberty of an individual, there is a need to move with speed, but the answer that the Minister has given in this debate sits ill with the answers that the Home Secretary was giving in our earlier debate about the need for Government, or a public authority, to have an appeal to Strasbourg.
There, I was seeking to set a tight timetable of about 60 days for Government, in which Government, having been criticised and condemned on the ground that our law is
incompatible by our own courts--by the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords--should say whether they accepted the criticism and what they proposed to do about it. I suggested that, if the Government did not accept the ruling of incompatibility, they should say so, so that the citizen concerned could take the case to Strasbourg, which would, in any event, undoubtedly take at least another year to achieve. Nevertheless, the need for speed is offered as a reason for justifying an alleged fast-track procedure.
I think that Ministers now accept in principle the Opposition's criticisms of the proposed procedure, although they did not accept them before. The Under-Secretary has rightly said--I was grateful to hear it--that there has to be a very good and compelling reason indeed for the Government, or any future Government, to attempt to use the fast-track procedure. Such occasions will therefore be rare and deal only with exceptional circumstances. The procedure will not be used regularly or apply to codes of practice--which, regardless, can be amended by statutory instrument. If there is a very good and powerful reason, affecting the liberty of the subject, I do not foresee Conservative Members, other Opposition Members or the Labour Members, as and when they come to be in opposition, standing in the way of such rapid amendment.
I do not believe that the Government have made their case for the fast-track procedure. However, I give them credit for backtracking about as far as they reasonably can, having already set out on this course. None the less, the course is wrong. The Opposition must criticise it as wrong, and make it perfectly clear that such a provision should not be enacted.
I am sorry to have to pitch in that criticism with our other criticisms of the Government trying to ride roughshod over Parliament. I hope that, by so doing, I will not be accused of hyperbole--although I may get the occasional rise of an eyebrow from a Labour Member. However, the Government are attempting to ride roughshod over Parliament. That is being demonstrated by the Jenkins commission, which is rigged in both its composition and its terms of reference. [Interruption.] Yes, it is.
I see the Secretary of State for Scotland spitting and saying "rigged?" The fact is that the Jenkins commission was given terms of reference to examine only one side of a very important picture. The three people on the commission, highly distinguished though they are, were all picked and chosen because of their known views on the subject. The Secretary of State for Scotland may wriggle and wave his hand and seek to rise to the occasion--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Order. We are not debating the Jenkins commission.
Sir Nicholas Lyell:
You are quite right, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was making the point--I am entitled to make this point--that the fast-track procedure is an attempt to ride over the rights of the citizen to be represented in the proper making of legislation by their representatives in Parliament. The fast-track procedure is of a piece with other constitutional changes proposed by the Government--I have mentioned Jenkins, and I mention proposals to abolish the rights of hereditary peers in the House of Lords and to replace them simply by nominated Members.
There is inadequate respect for Parliament, which, sadly, is shown also in this Bill. I put it down to the good sense of the Home Secretary--I am certainly prepared to concede this--that the proposal has now been heavily watered down, as we recommend. However, even something that is watered down can still be wrong in principle. We must therefore oppose the proposal. If Ministers will not accept this group of amendments, we must ask the House to divide on it.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 110, Noes 362.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Amendment made: No. 13, in page 7, line 25, leave out lines 25 and 26.--[Mr. Mike O'Brien.]
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Body, Sir Richard
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Butterfill, John
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clark, Rt Hon Alan (Kensington)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Duncan, Alan
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fox, Dr Liam
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gray, James
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Horam, John
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
Madel, Sir David
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Maude, Rt Hon Francis
May, Mrs Theresa
Nicholls, Patrick
Norman, Archie
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Prior, David
Randall, John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Ruffley, David
St Aubyn, Nick
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Richard
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tredinnick, David
Tyrie, Andrew
Walter, Robert
Wardle, Charles
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Woodward, Shaun
Yeo, Tim
Mr. Nigel Waterson and
Mr. Stephen Day.
NOES
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Jackie
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom
Brand, Dr Peter
Breed, Colin
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Cable, Dr Vincent
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Canavan, Dennis
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Church, Ms Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Ms Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Dalyell, Tam
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, John
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
George, Andrew (St Ives)
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Gorrie, Donald
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Hoey, Kate
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Keetch, Paul
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Charles (Ross Skye)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Kirkwood, Archy
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAllion, John
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morgan, Rhodri (Cardiff W)
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
Oaten, Mark
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Eddie
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Rogers, Allan
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Shipley, Ms Debra
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Swinney, John
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tyler, Paul
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr Rudi
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
Webb, Steve
Welsh, Andrew
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Willis, Phil
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wise, Audrey
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Mr. David Hanson and
Mr. Kevin Hughes.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |