Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80 - 99)
28 APRIL 1998
DR GEOFF
MANCE, MR
BRYAN UTTERIDGE
and MRS KATHARINE
BRYAN
80. One of my constituents yesterday in Evesham said to me
that the floods were the work of God, not his God but Saddam Hussein's
God. Actually I disagree with him. There were comments in the
farming press, Farmers Weekly, about the warnings you have
given about the consequence of development of the flood plain,
warnings in Farmers Guardian from the Countryside Restoration
Trust describing a manmade crisis would happen because of planning
controls in the flood plain being so inadequate. Can I invite
you to comment on first of all what Sally Keeble asked you and
that broader question in relation to the flood plain?
(Dr Mance) Yes, it is very frustrating. We have campaigned
over successive years on the issue of flood plain development
control and trying to prevent new risk areas. It is quite frustrating
to see the advice overlooked. We have targeted structure plans
to try and convince the main planning authorities of the benefits
of avoiding this and get them to adopt this as a policy. We have
had a reasonably high uptake on that. With local area plans we
have tried the same approach to try and get it built in. We have
had less success. One of the really frustrating things is to see
planning approval given for a mobile caravan site, ie touring
caravans which rapidly become permanent sited caravans and you
have this creeping development. I was explaining to a journalist
a couple of weeks ago, you cannot just say: "No development
on the flood plain", there is a large part of London which
is flood plain, below flood level, which has an awful lot of development
on it. If you say no development, does that mean none of that
can be redeveloped or it should be abandoned? I did comment to
Mr Hurst that we do not start with a new landscape, it has already
been built upon and we have to work within those constraints.
It is very hard to see how you actually address it legislatively
as such. It is an issue that needs case by case consideration
but there should be a further presumption against flood plain
development, in our view, if we are going to move to a situation
which does not increase flood risk and impose burdens on future
generations of repeatedly renewing flood defences.
81. In our work on the Food Standards Agency we have seen
that the Government proposes to give the FSA a right of veto over
certain veterinary medicines, for example. Should we be giving
the Environment Agency a right of veto over certain forms of development
on the flood plain?
(Dr Mance) You then trespass into an interesting area
politically which is quite difficult, a non-departmental public
body having a right of veto over elected councils over where development
should happen. It is a difficult one. I think the key one is in
making that decision there ought to be clear consideration of
how future defences will be funded.
82. This is the issue, when you build houses in the flood
plain you then build in a democratic requirement for flood defence
which can cost an awful lot of money, sometimes more than the
cost of building the houses themselves. What has happened in Maidenhead,
for example, your work in Maidenhead, that has been a very expensive
project indeed, has it not?
(Dr Mance) Yes, but perhaps the developer is making
a profit out of the construction. The vast majority of construction
now is private, there is not much actual public sector construction
of housing and commercial construction should be required to provide
a route of funding out of those profits and perhaps those areas
would seem far less profitable to develop then. At the moment
I think the system is not giving the right economic signals. If
it is assumed the defence will always be funded out of the public
purse then the commercial developer is allowed to take the profit
without making the right contribution long term.
83. And continuing?
(Dr Mance) And continuing.
Mrs Organ
84. To do with this, my constituency is in the Severn Flood
Plain where there has been considerable development. You say in
your memorandum you are concerned about the future, about the
4.4 million. Can I just ask, there are two things I am quite interested
in. In the past when development has gone on, you have said you
have advised the Structure Plans, the local planning authorities
that you have been campaigning about it but is there any point
when a planning application goes through into the Severn Flood
Plain that you are then consulted as to an assessment of risk
and the vulnerability of that development? Are you asked to do
that?
(Dr Mance) We are not necessarily asked to but in
making our comments on it we seek to draw it to their attention.
Currently we are seeking to actually map for the major development
pressures areas the limits of the flood plain so in a flood risk
area the council can be under no illusion at all as to where it
lies. We are doing that in agreement with the local government
association who as part of the campaign we are seeking to persuade
about the issues. We are trying to make sure the risk is fully
identified, understood and get the council to accept. Over Easter
at Banbury, for instance, in 1968 I think it was ten to 20 properties
were flooded. We have had over 100 flooded. All the new ones were
objected to at planning and went ahead regardless. We have clearly
created extra flood risk avoidably.
85. You are saying that you do consult, you highlight the
risk and the vulnerability for future development and local planners
then carry on at their peril.
(Dr Mance) Yes.
86. The second question to do with that is obviously local
planners may be trying to fit in with a housing requirement that
their structure plan asked them to do. Have you had discussions
with the other side which is developers, the house building federation
and people like this? We have talked about maybe if the real cost
is picked up, if developers do go ahead and build in the flood
plain, it is the local authority that then has to stump up the
dosh to pay for the flood defence but have you had any consultation
with the Federation of Housebuilders, large scale developers:
Heron and the like?
(Mr Utteridge) You will have seen our evidence where
we referred to the policy for the protection of flood plains that
we issued last year.
87. Yes.
(Mr Utteridge) That has been sent to all the local
planning authorities in England and Wales. In the front cover
is a list of the consultees who played a major part in helping
to put that document together. I do believe some of the organisations
you mentioned were included.
88. Are they sensitive to this? Is their attitude "Well,
let us just build it"?
(Mr Utteridge) No, I think they are sensitive to it
in some instances and there will be cases where we have said if
development goes ahead, necessary compensatory measures must take
place and they have done that and they have done that at their
expense. There are also occasions where we have objected -and
I do not mind coming in here and you quizzing me about flood warnings
-what I find quite frustrating about this is that we can object
to caravan sites in the flood plain and it is me who is in here
answering your questions about issuing warnings to those very
caravans that we objected to.
89. And the local authorities have gone ahead and said it
is okay.
(Mr Utteridge) I fully understand local democracy
and consultation and long may it continue. It is rather frustrating
when you find yourself in that situation.
Ms Keeble
90. Northamptonshire is one of the growth areas and there
is quite a projection of new housing being built in the flood
plain. This is going to be a really difficult issue that the local
authority is going to have to deal with. Are you actually a statutory
consultee or is it up to you to find out if there are plans going
on?
(Mr Utteridge) We are a statutory consultee.
91. You are a statutory consultee?
(Mr Utteridge) Yes.
92. But they are not obliged to take any notice of what you
say?
(Dr Mance) No.
93. Do you always respond if you are consulted?
(Mr Utteridge) Yes.
(Dr Mance) Well—
Chairman
94. There is a "well" from Dr Mance.
(Dr Mance) Always is a very big word. On best endeavours
we respond to everything we possibly can.
95. Everything in a traditional flood plain you would respond
to?
(Dr Mance) Yes.
Ms Keeble
96. You have somebody—
(Dr Mance) We employ quite a few staff who are in
direct contact with planning authorities across all our responsibilities,
not just flood plains.
97. Although I would prefer to see the Environment Agency
have much greater powers to deal with these matters, I can understand
that in some instances it might be decided on the balance of probabilities
that a local authority decides to approve a planning application
on the basis that that area might be subject to a one in 200 year
flood, that type of risk. Now if somebody then subsequently is
going to buy the house that is built, will that information show
up in their local authority search or not? It is one thing for
people to do the search and to know there is a risk of a one in
200 year flood and then they can decide about what they accept
about that risk and then make a decision about what to do. If
they do not know at all understandably they are going to be a
bit aggrieved if the Nene comes through their door.
(Dr Mance) I do not think it would necessarily show
up on the local government search. What we have been doing, as
part of our broad campaign on this issue to raise awareness, is
targeting the Law Society and the legal profession about conveyancing
and the need to check at conveyance the flood risk by contacting
us.
Chairman
98. And insurance companies about the insurability?
(Dr Mance) Bryan can elaborate at length about our
contacts with the Association of British Insurers and the work
we are doing there to assess areas at flood risk to increase the
awareness of insurance companies. There is a joint programme of
work run.
Ms Keeble
99. At present, a person can buy a property and have no warning
whatsoever, it will not show up in a local authority search. The
main areas that you get them, is there any way of them finding
out?
(Mr Utteridge) Not unless their lawyer specifically
researches that.
Ms Keeble: Do you have any input then also, for example,
to the DSS so that it can be recognised that people are in properties
at risk of flooding and if they cannot get insurance, which lots
of people cannot, there is some way of ensuring they can get money
to replace some of their flooded goods? Is there any liaison at
all?
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