Examination of Witnesses (Questions 108 - 119)
28 APRIL 1998
MR DAVID
RIDDINGTON, MR
JOHN DAINTY
and MR DAVID
NOBLE
Chairman
108. Thank you very much indeed for coming. I am sorry we
overran with our last witnesses but there were some topical events
that occurred since we planned that session which took up more
time than I expected so I do apologise for that unintentional
discourtesy. Mr Riddington, I think you are in charge of your
team today, perhaps you could introduce yourself and your colleagues.
(Mr Riddington) Thank you, Chairman. I am David Riddington
and I am the Chairman of the Association of Drainage Authorities.
On my right is John Dainty who is the Vice-Chairman of the Association
and on my left is David Noble, he is a practising consulting engineer
who has his own practice but provides the secretariat for the
Association, I believe about half and half. 109. Thank you very
much. Can I also thank you for your memorandum which we appreciate
and also for coming at quite short notice to today's evidence
session, we are grateful for that as well. Your evidence naturally
focuses on the role of Internal Drainage Boards but your Association
represents quite a broad range of interests, I believe. Perhaps
you could just explain, for the benefit of the Committee, the
scope of your membership, and the role of your secretariat in
harmonising policy among all these different groups?
(Mr Riddington) Certainly. We started in 1937 representing
Internal Drainage Boards only and knowing that the Environment
Agency were giving you separate information today we have only
covered Internal Drainage Boards in our evidence. Over the last
60 years we have increased our membership, or broadened our membership,
to include all the ten regional Flood Defence Committees so all
the flood defence activities of the Agency we have also overlooked.
We have about 40 district councils who have joined, not as full
members as associate members—those are the district councils
who do most flood defence or are most interested in it - and about
40 other bodies, that is any body who is interested: ADAS, for
example, the authorities in Northern Ireland and companies who
produce or in any way are interested in flood defence. About three
years ago we were instrumental in writing around all the other
comparable bodies in Europe and setting up the European Union
of Water Management Associations of which David Noble is the secretary
and I am the present president, which also tries to get a common
thread throughout Europe and spreading best practice and a common
thread in particular to put into legislation in Brussels. So far
as our role, our role is to represent flood defence and land drainage,
to make submissions to people such as yourselves and to advise
our members. We have two important sub-committees, one is our
Technical and Environmental sub-committee consisting of engineers
and one is our Finance and Administration sub-committee who will
advise our members on anything they care to ask, anything we think
they ought to know. We produce a gazette three times a year trying
to be as interesting as possible so it is read, but meanwhile
within that giving them any advice we think they ought to have.
This is posted individually to the private homes of every member
of every IDB, of which there are about 250. We have tried distributing
it in various ways and find that is the only effective way of
getting 100 per cent coverage and to various other people as well.
Every three years we run our ADA demonstration, which is a practical
outdoor demonstration for two days, moving around the country.
That is, we know, the biggest demonstration of its sort in Europe,
we suspect in the world, showing anything that is of interest
from drag lines, to accounting systems, to computers, anything
of interest to flood defence, land drainage is demonstrated every
three years, is there. We give advice to other bodies, sometimes
we are asked for it, sometimes we just give it. We have close
links across with MAFF on legislative changes, new legislation,
anything of that sort, interpretations thereof. The chief engineer
of MAFF sits on our Technical and Environmental committee and
a representative of the Flood Defence Division sits on our Finance
and Administration committee and they are extremely good attendants,
I may say, too. So apart from just getting the minutes they do
have an input. We give advice to the public if we think it is
possible and if we think it is reasonable and if we think they
need it. It is not easy, of course, because the public will only
take the information they think they need. We do all we can, as
I say, to represent the broad field. We have no executive powers.
IDBs need not join the Association, nor need Flood Defence Committees.
In fact there are only about three IDBs who have not joined, they
are very small and often in a rather mean manner you will have
one man running two boards, he will join one, pay a subscription
for one and not for the other. We consider we have total representation
of all the IDBs and all the Flood Defence Committees.
110. Thank you for that helpful overview. Can I ask you briefly
on the floods over the Easter period, inevitably there is a degree
of topicality there which we must address. I get the impression
from your evidence, which I appreciate was prepared very, very
shortly after the events themselves, that you were broadly satisfied
with the way that the IDBs and other interests that you represent
performed during those events, is that correct?
(Mr Riddington) We are speaking for the IDBs only
in this evidence but I would ask David Noble as an engineer to
answer that question.
(Mr Noble) There are about 15,000 square kilometres
of land in England and Wales that has some element of flood risk
attached to it, and that is about the size of Wales so it is a
fair piece of land. Of that 15,000, 6,000 square kilometres is
within drainage districts and a large part of that 6,000 is land
below sea level and is an area where every drop of rain needs
some assistance to convey it to safety. Much of it of course is
as a result of pumping. You could say within that 6,000 square
kilometres, you have probably got in theory, certainly, the highest
flood risk area in the country. My advice, I would have thought
beforehand as well as in retrospect, to anybody just before Easter
would have been head for those 6,000 square kilometres and the
chances are you will stay dry. Certainly to my knowledge I am
not aware of any flooding to property or any significant flooding
to land that took place within the 6,000 square kilometres within
drainage districts where the Drainage Boards are operating their
pumped systems. In the other 6,000 square kilometres, which gives
the total 12,000 square kilometres of drainage district, there
was around the edges some information received on flooding to
land, not extensive acreages and there was also some property
flooding, the full extent of which I am not yet fully briefed
on. Whilst the 6,000 square kilometres that I referred to stayed
dry, it was not because the systems were not under stress, they
had had their rain like everywhere else and certainly in large
parts of Cambridgeshire and South Lincolnshire, their systems
were stressed as much as they have been for 50 years or more.
The local management and the manipulation on an almost hourly
basis of pumping regimes and control gates, this actually in the
event was able to contain the flood waters and of course once
in those flood areas you do get any over-spilling, it does not
stop 20 metres away where the ground rises, it spreads for 20
or 30,000 hectares because of course the land is flat and nothing
will prevent the outflow. We had a very, very stressed period
but at the end of the day a very, very limited amount of flooding.
Of course, as with the Agency, Drainage Board engineers have learned
a lot because if your system just copes that in itself is a detail
of information that is rather better than all the theory.
Mrs Organ
111. You are really implying then that since the areas that
you managed coped with this episodic storm that we had over Easter
remarkably well, in fact one could say on a cost benefit analysis
under stress just about coped, you actually had one of the best
outcomes. Are you therefore saying that if we wanted to protect
areas which did suffer over the Easter period they should actually
have an extension and have your Internal Drainage Boards so that
places like Banbury, Northampton, Worcester, Evesham, those places
should have your expertise, your management, your Drainage Boards
being effective there?
(Mr Noble) I think the topography of the land is the
issue. I probably should say that the area that I referred to
as being protected and indeed free from flooding is protected
by some of the Agency's work, some of their major sea defences,
but then of course it is the role of the Drainage Boards to deal
with the inland water. In that particular situation it was the
inland water that would have caused the flooding and not inundation
from the sea. Where you have very flat land one of the benefits
is you can actually control the water levels, you can put in control
structures that can affect the water level in the system for quite
some kilometres distance away. You can pump water and it can have
an effect on water in the system quite some kilometres away. Once
you get into areas of undulating land and rising land, such as
Banbury, the degree to which you can control water of course is
very, very much reduced. Whilst one part of me says "Yes,
wouldn't that be wonderful. Yes, I am here on a marketing crusade
and let's have more Drainage Boards", in reality the whole
system of controlling water with pumps and sluices you cannot
just transfer from low flat lands into rather more undulating
areas.
112. But do you not have any responsibility for what happens
to drainage and water in areas that are not below sea level, that
are not very flat, the way you are doing with pumping and sluicing
in the areas that I have just mentioned?
(Mr Noble) The areas that you have just mentioned
are not in drainage districts. We have drainage districts which
extend to 1.2 million hectares of land. Whilst they spread from
Yorkshire down to Lincolnshire, Cambridgeshire, Kent and across
to Somerset, whilst they are spread around the country the one
thing they have in common is they are all extremely flat. One
of the benefits of the drainage district as far as the public
is concerned is that they live in the shadow of high banks, they
live near pumping stations, they live next to great big manmade
drains running alongside the roadways and they are aware that
there is a need for land drainage and flood protection. We look
after the 1.2 million hectares which is that flat part of various
parts of lowland England.
Chairman: Thank you for that. I think Sally Keeble has some
questions.
Ms Keeble
113. In paragraph one of your summary you refer to major
flooding, what do you call "major flooding"?
(Mr Noble) Major flooding in a property sense. We,
within a drainage district, would consider that if there had been
flooding and it had involved 20 properties then we would consider
that to be fairly significant and certainly some fairly serious
investigations would take place to see why that happened and whether
or not it could be prevented.
114. If you say 20 properties, is that what would be appropriate
for the area that is under your responsibility? In Northampton
I think it is something like 2,000 which is completely different.
(Mr Noble) The scale is quite different. The drainage
districts are predominantly rural areas, they will not have the
major centres of population.
115. So you are just talking about properties in the kind
of land for which you are responsible?
(Mr Noble) That is right. Certainly the scale of event
would be such that if there were 20 properties flooded or 100
hectares of land flooded that would be considered within a drainage
district as being fairly serious and significant flooding. Of
course, the consequences particularly of land flooding are dependent
as much as anything on the time of year. Within our drainage districts
we have all the high value crops, the salad crops, the lettuce,
the celeries, and of course with flooding of those areas at the
wrong time of year it is a total crop loss situation. At other
times of year whilst it might be just as extensive the impact
may not be so great.
116. Thank you. Just a question for Mr Riddington. Although
I know you are here with the IDB you are also I think the Chairman
of Welland and Nene Flood Defence Committee?
(Mr Riddington) I am, yes.
117. I do not want to go hugely into that but can I just
ask what your views were of what happened in the Easter flooding
in your area?
(Mr Riddington) The rainfall event, since rainfall
is measured in 24 hour lumps, when you look at the figures does
not look to be anything outrageous. The flooding event was quite
outrageous because the rain, although it came within 24 hours,
actually came within a very short time, it came in a wet catchment.
It also came when the reservoirs were full. Anglia Water, for
example, has a large reservoir just above Northampton at Pitsford
which is very seldom full, it has been extremely empty over the
last two or three years. They, quite rightly and correctly, have
had it full this last summer. A full reservoir might just as well
be concrete. A lot of the water that came into Northampton did
not come down the river, it came across fields. We have got eye
witness accounts of it coming across fields, washing sheep away.
The flow recorded in the river above Northampton was extremely
high but it was not high enough to justify or to predict the floods
that occurred. The water came across country.
118. What do you think about the flood warnings and flood
defences? Presumably you will be assessing that and making recommendations?
(Mr Riddington) We are collecting information. I believe
the Prime Minister announced only the other day an independent
chairman and an independent assessor will hold an inquiry and
report preliminarily by the end of May and the final report will
be by the end of September which we will be most interested to
see.
119. But you presumably went round and saw the damage yourself?
(Mr Riddington) Yes. I am going all round Northampton
again tomorrow.
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