Examination of witnesses (Questions 420 - 425)
TUESDAY 3 NOVEMBER
RT HON
THE BARONESS
YOUNG OF
OLD SCONE
and MS SUE
COLLINS
420. I was going to come on to that, actually;
but whichever way round you think is most useful?
(Baroness Young of Old Scone) We are quite excited
about the regulation proposing regionally-based plans, because
this is clearly a good way forward in terms of having a planned
approach, and one that is more devolved, we hope; though one questions
what the definition of `regional' is. Obviously, in the European
context it is very different from the one that we are currently
wrestling with here, and that, certainly, having a national framework
of objectives is really important for all of these schemes, even
if work-up of the detail and particular flavours of them is done
on a regional basis, or even more locally than that. So I think
the important thing is that we are clear about the objectives
we need to achieve, and in biodiversity terms they are very clearly
laid out by things like the Biodiversity Action Plan and by the
Species and Habitats Directive, as well as, we need to be clear
about that national framework of objectives as well as having
innovative and involving ways of developing schemes locally. And
I think both Bodmin and Forest of Bowland and some of the Countryside
Commission Land Management Initiative schemes demonstrate the
kind of combination of top-down and bottom-up that is needed to
be able to produce good innovative schemes that actually involve
real people. Sue, you may want to talk about it more, particularly
the Cumbria Farm Link process, which I think is a very useful
example.
(Ms Collins) I think the uplands pilots are only just
beginning, so we are not able to evaluate them, but we very much
like the approach of bringing together the Objective 5b elements
and the agri-environment elements and trying to deliver them together.
We have actually advised the Ministry, before they set up those
pilots, to widen the scope to include the full gamut of rural
development regulation type measures, including forestry, and
so on, so that we do favour more broadly-based experiments. And
we have worked with the Regional Service Centres of MAFF and with
the voluntary organisations, and so on, at regional level, in
the agri-environment fora, that have already been set up in the
UK, to try to share the vision about what needs to be done and
to make sure that schemes are targeted towards that. Those kind
of fora, involving more local representatives, could be expanded
to embrace a discourse about rural development plans, and I think
that would be a helpful development. It would link with sustainability
and Local Agenda 21 and really start broadening out the debate
so that we can find some win/win solutions, instead of everything
being compartmentalised.
421. Should rural development plans operate
at the administrative level of Bodmin Moor and the Forest of Bowland,
or should they operate at a larger level, how should communities
integrate into these, because, even then, in these examples, there
have been criticisms that the Bodmin Moor and the Bowland examples
have been too much "top-down" and not enough "community-led"?
(Ms Collins) I think the regional level for a kind
of strategic overview is a good one, provided it is linked to
national objectives.
422. You mean the Government regions; you would
be quite happy with that?
(Ms Collins) Yes, it could be the Government regional
boundaries, they are slightly different from the MAFF regional
boundaries; thereby hangs another tale, of course.
Chairman
423. The Minister reminded us that MAFF have
service centres, and they are of a very different concept from
the Regional Offices, when he gave evidence last week?
(Ms Collins) They do actually have Regional Directors,
who do take an interest in implementation; they do not make policy
but they do spend money and spending money is a very powerful
way of implementing policy. So we have, as you know, our Natural
Areas Initiative, which I think we have spoken of to you before,
which sets out objectives for the environment at the scale of
England divided by about a hundred. And we are producing for the
new Rural Development Agencies, in the spring, overviews at regional
level for those environmental objectives, because it is not manageable
to actually have a discourse that is very detailed about local
things. We also advise at the scheme level, so the Forest of Bowland's
prescriptions are very, very important in terms of what they deliver.
And there is need for dialogue, for involving local, interested
people in a debate; there is no mechanism at the moment. LEAPS,
the Environment Agency's Local Environmental Action Plans do involve
discussion with the public, and then iteration and a reformulation
of the plan; there is no such discourse around rural land use,
and I think it would be a helpful development over the next few
years if that were to come about. And, as I say, these Regional
Agri-environment Fora are sort of a step to openness from the
Ministry of Agriculture that could be built upon.
(Baroness Young of Old Scone) Could I come in on the
Bodmin and Bowland little local difficulties. I think, they have
not been smooth in implementation, because there is still a discussion
to be had with local people that has not yet been resolved, and
I think there are lessons there for future schemes, in terms of
how you take national and regional frameworks and develop them
at a local level. Perhaps I could just point you to one that I
think has worked well, and that is on the North York Moors, the
Objective 5b project there, which we have been very deeply involved
in, and, I must confess, I have walked a number of the farms involved
in that project. And there you have got some very marginal farmers,
not making a lot of money, having quite a tough time, if they
were sticking to traditional agriculture, but now seeing a way
forward by being able to do a bit of diversification on their
farm, some habitat management, some diversification into other
on-farm businesses, and very, very positive about this Objective
5b project. So I think there are good examples as well as poor
ones.
Mr George
424. The role of English Nature, in future rural
development plans, could it be to undertake environmental appraisals
of the rural development plans themselves; but there remains concern
that some statutory agencies are getting too involved in the project
planning and not perhaps standing back and giving, if you like,
objective appraisal, advice, at the broader level?
(Baroness Young of Old Scone) I think our role would
be at all levels. We clearly have an important role in setting
the national framework, we clearly would want to be involved in
frameworks being developed at regional level, not just in terms
of individual programmes but also in terms of general guidance
being given to various bodies at regional level in the development
of rural development plans and regional development plans. And
also we would want to be involved at individual scheme level,
because, quite often, the wildlife benefit of these schemes and
some of the enthusiasm that people generate around them is very
particular to the schemes, and our staff, in our local offices,
on the ground, do work very closely with individual landowners
on schemes, to make sure that (a) they do deliver clear environmental
objectives, and (b) that the sense of excitement that we get from
seeing this stuff going well is something that is shared with
farmers and landowners.
Chairman
425. That would have been a very neat link to
the next set of questions I wanted to ask you, but, I am afraid,
I think we are out of time. If I may, I will put those questions
in writing to you, I do not want to keep our friends from the
UK Objective 5b Partnership waiting any longer than they have
already waited. But can I express, on behalf of the Committee,
our deep gratitude to you, as a Scot, for your vigorous defence
of the English landscape and nature, and thank you very much for
the evidence you have given to us.
(Baroness Young of Old Scone) Thank you for the opportunity
to give evidence.
Chairman: Thank you.
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