Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
THURSDAY 14 MAY 1998
MR TONY
BANKS, MR
NIGEL PITTMANAND
MR SIMON
BROADLEY
60. I agree with that. Ronnie Fearn has already
touched on this aspect and you mentioned that education has a
part in sport with obviously youngsters playing at school, and
we were all introduced to sport at least then if we had not started
before we got to school. Ronnie Fearn touched on this, there is
very little organisation of veteran sports, there is some but
it is not on a national basis. With your very tiny budget which
you can spend directly, this is something where I think you could
have an influence, getting veteran sports organised throughout
the country so people can participate when they finish in the
real competitive games they choose to play, when they are in the
best part of their physical lives.
(Mr Banks) I think what you are doing is making this
point about no budget but some influence. Yes, it is true, certainly
the English Sports Council has been very active in trying to promote
sport amongst the elders in our society, and I think that it is
right and proper they should actually do that. There are a number
of sports, of course, which one can carry on participating in
right the way through, one does not necessarily even have to go
out of one's way to encourage or devise specific policies for
them. The oldest person I think who ran the London Marathon was
in the late-80s, 86 or 87. I know there was one 90 year old who
ran—well, ran is probably a little of an exaggeration but
certainly participated—in an East London half marathon I
started recently. So there are plenty of sports in which age is
not a barrier at all. Indeed we saw that when a number of our
colleagues went out on to the pitch at Upton Park to play in that
match you have just referred to.
61. I agree with you, but it is easier for older
people to participate in sports which are not team sports, because
it does not need organisation. I know the marathon is organised,
you send in your entry form and there you are, but it is the team
sports which are not organised for veterans, and that is somewhere
where you could have a great influence.
(Mr Banks) I take the point. I would point out though,
go down to Hackney Marshes, go and watch Sunday football, go and
watch park football and you will see some veritable veterans playing
there. I might add that the governing bodies of sport have realised
there are also big commercial opportunities involved here as well.
I do not know what age we are talking about but, for example,
in lawn tennis there is a circuit for the ex-professionals, or
professionals who have won Grand Slam titles, Grand Prix titles,
going out and putting on professional tennis because they are
the stars of yesterday. The same is true in football and cricket.
There are big commercial opportunities here in seeing those stars,
whose names remain, as it were, household names but are no longer
at the cutting edge of the professional circuit but still can
put a very, very good game together. Sky is also televising some
of these competitions as well.
62. My point is that we do not give people the
opportunity always to participate in sport after a certain age.
The other area where I think the links need to be strengthened,
and I would be interested in what you have to say, and that is
television. Somebody has already mentioned the BBC. The BBC shifted
Yesterday in Parliament to long wave—not far enough
as far as I was concerned—and they did that because they
did not want their listeners to disappear and not carry through
to 9 o'clock. The area of sport I am really concerned about is
where youngsters are involved in school compulsory sports which
they enjoy but we lose so many of them at the end of their school
life, particularly if they do not go on to university, although
at the end of university we lose them again at that point when
they start jobs. Particularly athletics lose out this way. Has
your Department got some plans to try and stem this loss of people
at that area between school and work?
(Mr Banks) There actually are a number of schemes
in place—the Tops Programmes —organised through the
English Sports Council in order to try and bridge that gap. There
is the worrying gap at the end of education and then movement
into the sports clubs. A lot is now being done because I think
that gap, where people literally just go missing, as it were,
is actually noted and is being addressed. I think that is a very
crucial one. When I am in my own constituency, I see youngsters
hanging around and I begin to wonder what opportunities are they
missing to develop latent talents, and what potential are we losing
in terms of world beaters or certainly very good sports men and
women? It is that gap that really needs to be addressed. It is
being addressed but there is a lot more we can do. It is a crucial
one, absolutely crucial. There are so many schemes which are operating
at the moment to try and get youngsters into clubs. The governing
bodies in terms of their sports development officers, working
with the local authorities, are designed to actually bridge that
gap. It is an absolutely crucial one. You can reach out to young
people through sport like no other activity I can think of. Our
Sports Ambassadors Programme, for example, is an important one.
You take Linford Christie or Ian Wright into a school in my constituency,
or to young people in youth clubs, and you will get more attention
paid to them than you will to even the best meaning and well meaning
politician or teacher. That is the sort of thing. We are trying
to encourage sports men and women to put something back into their
sport because a number of them have said, "If it had not
been for sport, I could have ended up going wrong." That
is how powerful sport can actually be as a motivator for young
people. That is why I try and encourage my colleagues who have
greater responsibility in this area, like employment, health,
education, home affairs, to recognise that money spent on sport
is an investment which repays itself time and time and time again,
reducing youth crime, delinquency, giving people respect for themselves.
When they start thinking they can do something and feel respect
for themselves, it is marvellous how that knocks on psychologically
into other areas. If only we could get Government Ministers to
fully grasp this fact, I think it would not be a question of having
to worry about whether we have a declining share of expenditure
for sport but they would be giving us more and more, spending
more and more, because they know it has an excellent return for
the investment.
Mr Wyatt
63. Sorry I am late, Mr Chairman. Mr Banks,
I was also celebrating last night but I was celebrating Charlton
Athletic's 1-0 win. It is a great community soccer club and it
is great it is back at the Valley too. Can I ask, if you were
Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, what change you
would bring to the current portfolio you have?
(Mr Banks) Whilst I am thinking about that, let me
congratulate Charlton on getting into the play-offs. You are absolutely
right, it is an excellent community football club and has played
a very significant role in reducing racism. We actually used Charlton
as one of our main clubs to launch the Football Task Force and
its first report on racism because it is a very well-run club
and it deserves its success. You are asking me for a personal
opinion, and I do not mind expressing a personal opinion on this,
but I would not want anyone to think that it was government policy.
Firstly, I have no intention of even thinking about being Secretary
of State and I am sure that same vision is shared by the Prime
Minister, but the thing is that I would personally want to be
able to take more executive action, so that is really what I would
like to do. I think I have made my personal position on this clear
and I can understand the strengths of the arm's length principle,
but I think it also has weaknesses that we too often ignore.
64. So in that, would you prefer, if you could,
to be the Chief Executive, as it were, though not in that name
in your position as Minister of Sport, of the UK Sports Council?
How do you influence if you do not actually get hold of the thing?
(Mr Banks) Well, that is one of the great mysteries
of government, is it not, really, how to influence without actually
being seen to do it? If you can get away with that, if you can
hack that, then you can usually get away with most things. You
are probably aware, Mr Wyatt, that we are looking at restructuring
the UK Sports Council. Yes, there has been talk in the past about
the Sports Minister being the Chairman of the UK Sports Council.
It becomes more difficult as there would be conflicts of interest
at that point and I think that is where you can see the strength
of the arm's length policy, that if you are actually, as it were,
responsible for grant-in-aiding a body and in then spending the
money, I think that one could then see that there is a possibility
of conflicts of interest arising. I want to influence more the
way that the UK Sports Council actually carries out its strategic
overview of sport and a number of proposals are being discussed
within the Department. I characterise this as a Sports Cabinet
and what I would try to do is to get all the Sports Ministers,
of which, as you know, we have four, to get together in order
to look at our country in the round and see whether we can, as
it were, inject some political will into the decisions that are
taken by the UK Sports Council. Now, that is not a criticism of
the UK Sports Council, but I do believe that there is a role for
a political overview without it necessarily being a heavy-handed
one. It is a very difficult line and I know that Mr Green has
gone, but it is the sort of thing that would frighten him maybe,
but I believe in the end that if we are going to be held responsible
for things, particularly if we are going to be held responsible
for things over which we have no authority, then I think that
we should either say, "It is nothing to do with me, Guv",
or start acquiring some authority.
65. We have the Rugby World Cup here next year
and we also have the Commonwealth Games in 2002. In both cases
there have been problems of funding and in both cases there have
been problems of management. What role do you think management
could play in the academy of sport? We seem to have a fundamental
weakness in our sports in professional management.
(Mr Banks) Well, of course our Institute, the UK Institute,
will be professionally managed and we are, as Mr Broadley said,
looking around for the very best or the very best are being sought
to head this up. Professionalism is unavoidable in sport if we
aspire to achieve. One has to say this, that the day of the well-meaning
amateur in terms of administration quite frankly is over. There
might still be a number of them around, but I think that they
are recognising that sport is just too significant, it is just
too important in order to, as it were, be based on an amateur
ethos and we do need to be professional. These events that you
are talking about, and I do not want to get involved, as it were,
in some of the management problems and a number of the governing
bodies' problems in some of the sports, particularly rugby which
you know far better than me, because it is quite frightening at
times, but they are matters essentially for those bodies. Again
the Sports Minister can help, can assist, I think, by being an
honest broker, by being, as it were, someone who can hold the
ring so that we can get some sensible discussions going, and that
is a function, I think, of the Minister. You mentioned the cost
of the Commonwealth Games and yes, there is a problem, there is
a gap here, and again the English Sports Council and Ministers
are doing their best to try and address that because these great
international festivals of sport do cost money and I think that
we have got to recognise that, but we cannot afford to have these
great international festivals, as it were, failing when we are
hosting them.
66. Certainly with 2006 coming up. Mr Broadley,
in the Institute then, will there be a professional management
centre or training excellence in the management of sport?
(Mr Broadley) Yes, there will be such a centre at
Sheffield and then also the regional structure and people are
talking about possibly seven or eight sites in England and all
with newly-recruited staff, multi-discipline, multi-sport. The
point I was talking about and the Minister has referred to is
of our starting at the top with the Chief Executive of the Institute,
but then there will need to be coaches in each of the sports employed
perhaps by the governing body.
(Mr Banks) I think Mr Wyatt is probably saying it
is more about whether we are actually going to have something
that specifically trains administrators professionally.
67. Absolutely.
(Mr Banks) Well, of course a number of universities
are offering courses in sports administration. It is an area that
is developing fast. It is an education matter again, but it is
certainly one that is necessary and I think that the more professional
we become, the more these courses are going to be made available.
It is a very good point about the UK Institute itself as to whether
or not we are going to have a part of that, as it were, dedicated,
and we are certainly going to have that for the training of coaches,
but dedicated for sports administrators. I think that is a very
good point and one that needs to be taken up and I will do so.
68. When UNESCO was formed in 1946, it was education,
science and culture. If it was formed today, there are more sporting
members of the Olympic Association than there are of the United
Nations, and it would be education, science, sport and culture.
In the British Council we have the same problem, that it is our
front door overseas and there are hundreds and thousands of people
who come to Britain for their coaching courses and sport is not
properly represented on the British Council either here or overseas.
What initiatives or in what way can we educate our British Council
to better understand how important they are as the front window,
especially for the World Cup bid?
(Mr Banks) My experience in the 2006 campaign has
been that the local British Council have been very much involved,
they are involved and they want to be involved, and they do understand
the significance of sport. Wherever we are going, the plea that
is coming from the various sports personalities, the movers and
shakers, as I said, in various countries is, "Can we have
more exchanges with the United Kingdom in the sports areas? Could
we have a memorandum of understanding?" For example, when
we were in Argentina, this is something where Hugo Porta, as you
will know very well as one of the great rugby personalities of
the world, is very keen to encourage a memorandum of understanding
between Argentina and this country hopefully to be signed by President
Menem when he makes his visit. Now, I must say, to show the significance
of this, Chairman, that when we were with President Menem, we
had a most animated discussion that ran on and on and, since he
is a Head of State, we were taking our lead from him and we were
not talking at him at great length, but he just wanted to talk
sport and Malvinas never came up once. I found that quite intriguing
and obviously there are issues where sport can transcend politics
in that sense and I do hope that we will be able to get a memorandum
of understanding signed between the Prime Minister and President
Menem when he makes his visit. These memorandum of understanding
extend to a number of other countries as well. It is a great political
lever. Only those of us who understand the psychological impact
that sport has realises how significant it can be as a political
factor. When we are doing this campaign, we get access to heads
of state because they want to talk sport. It animates them. Watch
the Prime Minister if Kevin Keegan walks into the room. It is
that sort of thing, we all have our heroes and heroines, we all
want to talk sport. It is unusual to find someone who is not touched
in some way by sport. Last point—I am sorry, it is a long
answer because you can understand it certainly motivates me—when
we were in Qatar with the emir he said how delighted he was with
Arsenal's achievements and could he have a photograph of the Arsenal
team, and we are going to provide him exactly with that. That
is the sort of thing I mean. His favourite was Charlie George
and he talked at great length about Charlie George. Sitting there
in his enormous palace, talking about Charlie George, I was fascinated!
69. Chairman, can I thank Mr Banks for all the
work he has done within this past year? We think you have done
a great job.
(Mr Banks) Thank you.
Chairman: I am sure you can say that,
Mr Wyatt.
Mrs Golding
70. Can I come back to bricks and mortar please?
What power do you have over listing buildings which have been
connected with sport in previous times? I am thinking of miners'
welfare institutes, where for the first time libraries and cinemas
and sport were brought to the working people—things like
table tennis, snooker, chess. Many of these buildings are now
falling into disrepair and they were the centre of the community,
everybody went there. If they could be brought back into use,
and there are many of them around the country which are falling
into disrepair, they would be great for your vision of getting
people interested in sport because some of them have got vast
halls which could be used during bad weather.
(Mr Banks) Absolutely, and certainly are in areas
where unemployment still remains unacceptably high.
71. Absolutely.
(Mr Banks) Clearly sports activities is a tremendous
way of getting people to channel their energies and efforts. I
will pick up on one thing quickly, and that is chess. I still
do not understand why we do not recognise chess as a sport in
this country.
72. I do!
(Mr Banks) We do! I have asked for a review of the
criteria of what is a sport because this is not a metaphysical
or academic point, it is a very practical point, because when
the decision is made the funding can click into gear. I think
we are the only country in the European Union which does not recognise
chess as a sport.
73. We recognise dominoes as a sport.
(Mr Banks) I understand we do but chess is not recognised.
Fourteen out of the fifteen European Union countries do recognise
it. We happen to be good at it! I just do not understand, anyway
that is by-the-by. On the matter of listing, I take this matter
very seriously and visit those proposals which come to me. I work
through English Heritage. English Heritage, of course, make their
recommendations, we look at those recommendations but the final
decision is mine, and it gives me a great buzz because this is
an area where I can actually make an executive decision. For those
who say that I have no interest in heritage, well, they just simply
do not know me at all. The journalist who wrote that article,
which I found very offensive last Sunday, accusing me of being
a philistine—it was his prejudices talking—he never
even had the courtesy to talk to me. I was responsible for historical
buildings in London and for arts policy in London over a number
of years, and I think I made a useful contribution in the city
in that respect. I take this matter seriously. There is an element
of subjectivity involved; it is almost inherent in the decision-making
process. You can get experts to look at a building and they can
totally disagree about its architectural merits. I take advice
from English Heritage but I do not always have to follow it. I
read it and sometimes I will amend. With regard to the institutions
you are talking about, some of them, yes, most certainly have
been listed I am sure and certainly merit listing. There is nothing
stopping any member, I might add, referring a particular building
to English Heritage and asking for a report on it to see whether
it is worthy of listing. They cannot know where every building
is and what every building has in terms of architectural and historical
merit. The decision I have to take in the end will be one based
on good advice and one gets excellent advice from English Heritage,
but it will be a decision based on the architectural merits of
the building, not necessarily its potential function in the future.
The decision-making process is not there to save buildings because
there is no other way to save them, as it were. They will be saved
if they are of the merit that would lead English Heritage to make
a recommendation to me.
74. But, Minister, is that not rather sad when
many of our communities that you have mentioned have so many unemployed
kids on the streets? Because these buildings are not architecturally
up to the quality of English Heritage, they are just left to rot
when kids have got nowhere to go. Should not something be done
about that?
(Mr Banks) There are other avenues of course. The
other avenues being applications through the Sports Lottery Fund
for those buildings to be refurbished. One of the other changes
that is coming through is the ability to refurbish existing sports
facilities, to actually invest in people and not just in bricks
and mortar. These are the changes that the Government is proposing
in the Lottery Bill which is currently going through the House.
That will open up yet another area of opportunity for saving those
buildings, not simply because some of them are of great merit
and they can be saved, but also because they perform a valuable
function in communities which have taken an awful lot of damage
over recent years.
Ms Ward
75. The Advisory Committee on Listed Sporting
Events reported recently and made a number of recommendations,
and I am aware the Secretary of State is still deliberating on
that. I wonder if you would be prepared to either comment on the
recommendations or upon the principles of listing sporting events
and the broadcasting and protection of those areas?
(Mr Banks) I would be unwise to pre-empt the Secretary
of State in terms of the decisions. As I explained earlier, there
is a meeting this afternoon and he will be making an announcement
on the recommendations that the review committee have made to
him. If I could just make a couple of general points about this.
Of course, there are certain sports events which are of such national,
and indeed international, significance that they must be free-to-air,
they simply must be free-to-air. But I think we have also got
to face up to something else, and that is the broadcasters, particularly
the BBC, used to get their sport on the cheap, to the point where
they would be prepared to spend large amounts of money on programme-making
but somehow felt sport should hand its product over to broadcasters
for nothing because it was sport, and the sports organisers should
actually be grateful that the BBC was prepared to give it coverage.
Had the BBC shown a little more foresight they could have snapped
up Premier League football, they could have tied up a deal which
probably would have resulted in Mr Murdoch never really getting
BSkyB going at all. I am not particularly impressed by the BBC
whingeing now about its problems of being shut out of top line
sport. They had their opportunity, they had a modern monopoly
on it, and by being more intelligent and having more foresight
in the way sport was developing, they could have actually tied
up deals which would have taken them well into the 21st century
at a fraction of the price because, particularly football, would
have sold them it at the time, but now it is too late. I do think
we have got to acknowledge the fact that sport is a product as
well, at the levels we are talking about, and that people cannot
just say, "I have a right to see this for free". We
have already said how important sport is, so is food but you would
not go into a supermarket, take a trolley full of food and get
to the check-out and say, "This is so important to my life,
I want it free." Perhaps in my earlier years I might very
well have advocated such a course, but we are all New Labour now
so we have to pay a fair price. I think it is right to pay a fair
price but there are still some sports—and the list is an
obvious one and even though I am not going to enter into it, we
all know what they are—which must always be free-to-air,
but the governing bodies of sport have a right to receive something
back for their sport, it is not a one-way process. The broadcasters
will have to pay, we will have to pay. We have to pay to get in
to watch it in the flesh, as it were, why should we assume we
can sit in our living rooms and watch it for free? I hope that
does not sound too commercial and too monetarist. I have not totally
bitten the bullet on this one, but I do feel that we should not
just criticise some of the commercial broadcasters, as it were,
for the policies they have been pursuing because they have put
a lot into the games.
76. I think what you are explaining very clearly
is the reality of commercialism in sport, particularly in football,
and whilst I think there are many people who think that that is
a great shame, it is the reality that football is very, very commercial.
Now, a little bit earlier in response to Mr Green's comments about
the influence the Minister might have and whether sport goes up
and down on a good day or a bad day, you do have an influence
and you clearly want to use that influence in terms of football,
but what do you really think that you, the Minister, the Department,
your Football Task Force or indeed anything else can do to influence
the football industry, which effectively is what it is now, an
industry, to ensure that it does not run away with itself completely
and it does recognise that it does have a market that should not
be just priced out and there are people there who genuinely believe
they have the right in some way or another to view those sports,
to be part of those sports and even though they have to pay for
them, they want to have a fair price to pay for access to the
pitches, access to the sports, access to the broadcasting of those
sports and, particularly, access to the merchandise that these
clubs produce, and you know as well as I do that some clubs have
taken that to the extreme?
(Mr Banks) Obviously, in theory, as Members of Parliament
in this place, we can do whatever we want, in theory, and that
would also of course apply to football as well, but obviously
we temper what clearly are almost unlimited powers with a grasp
of the realities within our areas of responsibility, and sport
is one of them. We do have a problem here. The trouble is that
sport so often gets translated back to mean football and football
ends up being half a dozen clubs and in a way this is unfair.
Sport is so much greater than all of that. Football is not even
our greatest participant sport in this country. It might be the
most significant spectator sport, but it is relatively small in
comparison with angling, for example, and indeed with basketball,
so we have to keep it in some sort of context. Football, which
is where the complaints mostly arise at the moment, is going through
an unprecedented wave of success, but it can all finish, it can
end. Football has gone through these periods of popularity followed
by unpopularity. I do not think it will ever really go back to
how it might have been in the 1970s when we had all sorts of problems
in football, it is too far on now, but it is unbelievably popular.
It is very difficult when you are talking to the chairman of a
football club, and I was with one last night, when you say, "Well,
I think the prices are too high", and I just paid £1,250
for next season's ticket at Stamford Bridge, "£1,250,
yes, sir", and, Ms Ward, you may well look askance, but it
is a drug and I cannot do anything about it.
77. You would have a better deal at Watford.
(Mr Banks) Well, yes, but I would not want to go to
Watford, you see! That is the whole point. Even had I been elected
in Watford in 1979 where I stood and was not able to achieve the
level of success that you were able to come up with some many
years later, I would not change my football club allegiance; you
cannot do it. It is not just another product. You cannot just
say that it is like a car or a refrigerator and if one manufacturer
puts up the price, you switch your brand to another; you just
cannot do that with football, so football has a responsibility.
There are ways that this could be done. If we were to recognise
football as not being, as it were, like any normal product or
any other product because it is not just something that we can
switch in and out of, we could introduce a regulator and this
is not government policy, I hasten to add, but it is a possibility.
We, after all, interfere, as it were, in the markets of the public
utilities because we recognise that their role within the economy
is different from other products. You simply cannot survive without
electricity and water in this country, you simply cannot survive
and, that being so, you cannot just let free market forces rip
in those areas. Now, I suspect that you could survive without
football, but some people still would question that assumption,
so there are possibilities. Now, the Task Force will be looking
at the question of ticket prices and will be looking at the question
of merchandising and it will be a very, very difficult area, but
the mere fact that we cannot solve all the problems to everyone's
satisfaction is not an excuse for not actually looking at the
problem because in the end, coming back to the influence factor,
I do feel that we, as politicians, can assist the organisers of
sports to recognise that there is something called a long-term
interest and that we are in many ways responsible for the long-term
interest of sport in terms of the way that people use sport and
I think that that is a perfectly valid function for us to have
as politicians, so there are things we can do. On the matter of
the manufacture of sports equipment and replica kits, there was
a ruling fairly recently by Trade and Industry, I understand.
We all know the notorious statement that was made, allegedly,
but they never denied it, by the two Newcastle directors, laughing
at the fact that they only paid £5 to have the replica kit
manufactured and they charged their fans £50. If that sort
of level of exploitation is taking place, I think that politicians,
whether we like it or not, will be forced to intervene because
that is gross exploitation and I think that we owe it to the people
that we represent at least to make sure that they are not exploited
in such an appalling way. How we do it is another matter of course.
Mr Fabricant
78. If I can just move you back on to heritage,
you were very critical of Kenneth Powell's article in the Sunday
Telegraph and here is an opportunity for you to show how wrong
he is when he says that, "Now Labour's Culture Minister,
Tony Banks, is busy cutting heritage down to size". In your
annual report, which we gather cost £42,000 to produce, it
says there is a reduction of £2 million in English Heritage's
budget for the period 1998-1999 compared with the previous plans.
Then later on in the evidence which your Department gave us, the
written evidence, you said that "this is a reflection of
the success of the continuing programme of efficiency measures".
Now, how can you reconcile that when the cut is going to lead
to reductions in grants to English Heritage while in fact English
Heritage's operating costs are going to increase so that less
money will be available?
(Mr Banks) Well, unfortunately we are all required
under departmental spending reviews to actually look very critically
at the areas for which we are responsible. We felt that this was
a reasonable budget for English Heritage. They will in fact have
£102.2 million coming from my Department this year and will
earn a further £28.3 million from their own efforts. There
is a lot that English Heritage can do to increase the amount of
money that they actually earn and I think this is a good way of,
as it were, disciplining them in that regard because there is
enormous earning potential out there with a good commercial attitude—my
gosh, I sound terribly monetarist—and I see no reason why
we should not market ourselves efficiently and I see no reason
why English Heritage should not do that. I do not believe, otherwise
I would not have gone along with it, but I do not believe that
the amount that English Heritage will receive during the course
of next year will inhibit its effectiveness. I simply do not accept
that. If I thought that, I would not have gone along with it.
79. Well, English Heritage may have a different
view.
(Mr Banks) Well, they always have.
Chairman: Mr Banks, thank you very much
indeed. It has been an extremely interesting session and we are
most grateful to you.
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