Examination of witnesses (Questions 1 - 19)
TUESDAY 16 JUNE 1998
THE RT HON CHRIS SMITH,MR MIKE O'CONNOR, and MS CLARE PILLMAN,
Chairman
1. Before welcoming the Secretary of State, could I take this
opportunity of paying tribute to Sir David English who died last
week and who appeared several times before this Committee as a
witness. Sir David was the architect of a new form of mid-market
tabloid journalism which was extraordinarily successful and had
an important social effect on this country as well as an effect
on journalism. We in this Committee will miss him very much. Secretary
of State, I would like to welcome you again to this Committee
and to thank you for the memorandum that you have sent us. We
are of course very gratified that one of the memoranda consists
of the outcome of a survey which you initiated following the recommendation
of this Committee. I should note that the further letter you sent
me and I received this morning has been noted by the Committee
and the Committee will certainly pay total heed to what you request
there. As I say, you have sent us two memoranda, and if there
is any further initial statement you would like to make, we will
be very pleased to hear it before the questioning starts. Can
I say, also, Secretary of State, that one or two Members will
have to go in and out because they are on Standing Committees
and Mr Maxton has to take the Chair. If the Committee, therefore,
thins either periodically or in any other way, no discourtesy
to yourself is intended.
(Mr Smith) Thank you, Chairman. It is always a pleasure
to appear before you. First of all, can I associate myself completely
with the remarks that you have just made about Sir David English,
who is a great loss to British journalism. Can I just perhaps
highlight one or two things to start the discussion off and, first
of all, to say that I am extremely glad that the Committee has
chosen to look at the millennium celebrations as a whole rather
than just focusing on the much discussed issue of the Experience
at Greenwich. It is something that I sometimes wish our colleagues
in the national press would perhaps do more of in looking at the
major work which is going on around the country for the millennium
up and down the land. The way in which the Millennium Commission
has gone about doing its work, it has just over £2 billion
at its disposal over the seven to eight-year period of its life
and within that it has offered grant to £1.24 billion worth
of capital projects, large and small, ranging from a new university
for the Highlands and Islands to the new Tate Gallery at Bankside.
The projects which have come forward for that capital spending
have been application driven. They have not been determined by
the Commission, they have been determined by communities up and
down the country. What has happened is actually quite interesting.
The broad themes that have emerged from these applications have
been common, wherever the project has been coming from. They have
really fallen into five areas: firstly, investing in education
where some 15 projects are being supported; secondly, encouraging
environmental sustainability where some 45 projects are being
supported; thirdly, revitalising our cities where some 24 projects
are being supported; fourthly, promoting science and technology
where some 13 projects are being supported; fifthly, supporting
communities up and down the country, village halls, village greens,
those sorts of things, where some 88 projects are being supported.
In addition to those capital projects, there are also the Millennium
Awards which are awards made to individuals and £200 million
has been set aside for that. There is the Millennium Festival
which draws together money not just from the Millennium Commission
but, as the Committee will know, from all the other Lottery distributors
as well into a common pool of £100 million. Of course, there
is the New Millennium Experience itself at Greenwich to which
£400 million of Lottery funds from the Commission is being
devoted and which will be the focus of our millennium celebrations
and, I have every confidence, an enormous success. I would just
add one other thing and that is that the Millennium Commission
has of course been from its outset a cross-party, non-partisan
committee. I would pay very strong tribute to all the members
of the Commission and indeed to all the staff who have worked
for the Commission for the enormous success that they have already
had.
Mr Maxton
2. Secretary of State, tomorrow we are going to Scotland to see
what is happening there and we are going to Hampden Park. To be
honest, Hampden Park is the only concrete evidence that money
is actually being spent by the Millennium Commission in Scotland
at the moment. There are a lot of projects. It is only 18 months
before the year 2000 starts. I wonder whether you are at all concerned
about the fact that a lot of money is going into projects without
yet any great evidence they are going to be completed on time?
(Mr Smith) I think I would disagree that Hampden Park is
the only evidence. The work, for example, on SCRAN, the project
to put the heritage of Scotland into digital form which is a major
and very innovative project, is already well advanced. That work
is something like half completed now. The work has already started
on putting together the University of the Highlands and Islands.
There is a range of other projects in Scotland, some of which
will be complete before the millennium turns, most of which will
be complete during the course of the millennium year itself. That
is the pattern everywhere, that by the end of the year 2000 the
great bulk of the millennium projects will be completed and on
the whole they are on time and going well.
3. What are the procedures for monitoring the expenditure of money?
(Mr Smith) The projects team at the Millennium Commission
keeps in very close contact with each of the individual projects.
Having given the initial approval against obviously a business
plan, a forward projection both of time and of spend, the projects
team at the Millennium Commission monitors very carefully because,
of course, the money is not drawn down before it is needed. When
an award is made the cash does not transfer over straight away.
The cash is only released as the building work takes place or
the expenditure takes place. In order to do that, the proper accountability
has to exist and close monitoring takes place.
4. Does that of itself cause some problems then? That means to
some extent people have to find money or get work done on the
basis that money might be coming rather than it is coming.
(Mr Smith) Of course each project has to have matching
funding of at least 50 per cent, in many cases more than 50 per
cent. It has been a very clear rule of the Millennium Commission
from the outset that 50 per cent is the absolute maximum of grant
that can be made by the Millennium Commission. Other sources of
finance have to be available anyway. Money is released as it is
needed. That may be in order to enable expenditure to take place
rather than after expenditure has taken place but the evidence
must be very clear that the money is required at that time.
Chairman: Can I just intervene and say I see Mr O'Connor
nodding, so could I make it clear that if Mr O'Connor or Ms Pillman
feel it appropriate to add anything to what the Secretary of State
says, they will be very welcome to do so.
Mr Maxton: Secretary of State, I must apologise to you,
I do have to go and chair the Scottish Standing Committee.
Mr Fearn
5. Secretary of State, £1.24 billion I think you said is
committed so far.
(Mr Smith) Yes.
6. How is that spread throughout the country? We are leaving the
Dome aside now because in some regions it is a joke, in other
regions we know it is going to be a success, but the £1.24
billion, how is that spread and what do you mean by application
led? Are there some applications being turned down?
(Mr Smith) There were many applications which I am afraid
had to be refused, some which were not particularly worthwhile
applications in the first place but many which were. The Commission
had to engage in a sometimes very difficult assessment exercise
of the different merits of different projects before giving approvals.
The spread around the country does differ from place to place.
The figures, for example, for Northern Ireland, for Scotland and
for Wales per head of population are rather more generous than
some of the figures for parts of England. The area which is particularly
worrying, because it has done very clearly the worst per head
of population in terms of grants awarded, has been the East Midlands.
That is why we have left a very small pot of money for further
capital projects for further consideration and we do want to look
particularly at any projects which are still in the pipeline from
the East Midlands to see if we can give them approval.
7. Are there any major ones in the North West?
(Mr Smith) There is a number of major projects in the North
West. The most important, of course, is the Lowry Centre in Salford
which is a landmark project of very substantial value. I forget
exactly the figure, Mr O'Connor will correct me, I think it is
about 45 to 50 million we have awarded to the Lowry Centre.
Chairman
8. Please do not worry about that, Secretary of State.
(Mr Smith)There is a number of others. There is the National
Discovery Park in Liverpool, there is the Rochdale Canal Restoration,
there is work to the River Lune in Lancaster, there is the Ribble
Link in Preston, there is the Forest of Burnley and so forth.
There is a range of substantial projects, all of those are well
in excess of a million pounds in grant.
Mr Fearn
9. Within the whole £1.24 billion so far, are there many
projects which are geared to tourism? Do you think the millennium
is going to help tourism?
(Mr Smith) The millennium will undoubtedly help
the tourism industry and indeed you could probably argue that
something like 80 per cent of the projects that are being supported
will have a beneficial effect on tourism, both from drawing overseas
visitors into the country but also encouraging domestic tourism
which is, of course, one of the major markets to which we now
need to look for increasing tourism expenditure.
Chairman
10. Adding to your response to Mr Fearn--and it may well be that
this information is not available and if so we will seek it elsewhere--we
had a memorandum from Mr Caborn, from the Department of Environment,
Transport and the Regions, who quite rightly refers to the Millennium
Greens Project. Do you know when decisions about which places
will be designated Millennium Greens will be made?
(Mr Smith) Certainly I think a large number have already
been so designated. What we did with the Millennium Greens Project
was to give umbrella approval to the Millennium Greens Project
and then the individual Greens within that scheme will put forward
their own proposals and gradually get a rolling programme of approvals.
I am pretty sure that at least half have already been approved,
and indeed some are already well underway.
Chairman: Maybe the one in Longside in my constituency'
is in the other half.
Mr Fabricant
11. Secretary of State, nice to see you today.
(Mr Smith) The feeling is entirely reciprocated.
Chairman: This could be overdone.
Mr Fabricant
12. I know you are not responsible for the Dome but I just want
to set the scene for my question. In the Sunday Timesin
Nicholas Hellen's article "Christianity lost in Dome 'spirit
zone'" he talks about funding problems being a possible reason
why there is not going to be a cross at the Dome. He says that
the spirit zone will "... display human rites of passage,
religious rituals and images of great devotional art". Indarjit
Singh, who is the Director of the Network of Sikh Organisations
and a Dome adviser says: "There is a pressure to be secular,
although it is supposed to be a celebration of 2000 years of Christianity".
What I really wanted to ask you, on the remit which is your's,
and it is not the Dome, there is some argument that after all
the millennium is celebrating the birth of Jesus and so it is
essentially a Christian festival. Now the Lambeth Group have actually
suggested that some non Lottery money be ring fenced to be made
available to the festival because there is a number of Christians,
and indeed people of other regions as well, who object to Lottery
funding because of the principle of money being raised from a
Lottery. I am wondering, firstly, what do you think about the
Lambeth Group's suggestion and whether you are able to take this
up and whether you have any general comments to make about the
overall millennium celebration and its relationship with Christianity?
(Mr Smith) Can I ask you, first of all, Mr Fabricant, have
you seen this document "Marking the Millennium in a Multi
Faith Society"?
13. No, I have not.
(Mr Smith) I have to say, I do wish sometimes that people
like you, Mr Fabricant, would do your homework before you ask
questions.
14. Charming.
(Mr Smith) This document was issued some months ago, made
available to all Members of Parliament. It sets out very clearly
what we, together with the Lambeth Group, have put together in
terms of the religious and faith significance of the millennium.
If I can just quote from the document. It says: "The millennium
marks a key event in Christian history. 2000 years according to
traditional dating since the birth of Jesus. Christian churches
around the world will be marking this with many different forms
of worship and commemoration. In countries such as the UK where
the Christian tradition has been rooted for many centuries and
has had such a formative influence many national and civic celebrations
will have a specifically Christian framework. At the same time
in our multi faith society there will also be shared celebrations
and the year 2000 will be an opportunity for people of all faiths
to draw on the spiritual heritages of their own traditions to
think together about the values that underpin our society and
to reflect on the future of our society and our environment for
ourselves, our children and the generations to come."
15. Now would you like to answer my question?
(Mr Smith) That puts the general point extremely clearly.
Mr Fabricant: It does not answer my specific point.
Chairman
16. The Secretary of State is speaking. When the Secretary of
State has finished speaking you can put another question.
(Mr Smith) That general point about the importance of the
millennium celebrations to the Christian faith and the Christian
tradition but also the need to include other people of other faiths
and none within the national celebrations that we put together
for the turn of the millennium, that point is the general approach
which the Government has taken, which the churches have taken,
which the Lambeth Group has taken. Secondly, there will be a cross
in the Dome. You should not always believe everything you read
in the newspapers. Thirdly, the point about non Lottery funding
being available, the Millennium Festival, which sets aside £100
million for the Festival celebrations during the year 2000, is
made up from 80 per cent of Lottery funding, because it comes
from all the different Lottery distributors, including the Millennium
Commission. The Millennium Commission has no other source of funding
other than the Lottery, that is the very nature of the beast.
20 per cent, however, is contributed by the New Millennium Experience
Company. The contribution that they will bring does not come from
the Lottery money that they are receiving, it comes from the sponsorship
money that they are receiving. That pool of money from sponsors
will be available, obviously, to people who perhaps for a variety
of reasons do not wish to bid for Lottery money. They might be
able to bid for that. I cannot give any guarantee that they will
be successful but that portion of money is there and available
for application.
Mr Fabricant
17. That proportion of the money will be ring fenced--to answer
my question--and was not incidentally in your report.
(Mr Smith) It is not ring fenced as such.
18. Why not?
(Mr Smith) It is available if applications are made of
that nature.
19. Why do you not choose to ring fence it?
(Mr Smith) Because that is money that is being provided
by the New Millennium Experience Company which, of course, I do
not control. Secondly, it is money that is being provided by sponsors
who may have their own particular priorities about how it should
be used. It is available for application and applications, if
they are good, will be considered.
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