Examination of Witnesses (Questions 52 - 59)
TUESDAY 16 JUNE 1998
GLENDA JACKSON, LORD LEVENE, and MR MARK LAMBIRTH
Chairman
52. Thank you very much indeed for coming to see us. We much appreciate
it. We are very grateful for the material from your Department,
not only from yourself but from Richard Caborn who has also sent
us a memorandum. If we are bit thin on the ground this is because
one of our colleagues is chairing the Scottish Standing Committee
and two are in other Standing Committees but they may be able
to come back. As I say, you have very kindly given us a memorandum.
If there is anything you would like to add to that before we start
the questioning, we would be very glad to hear it.
(Glenda Jackson) I am most grateful to you, Mr Kaufman.
I am sure you are aware I am accompanied today by Lord Levene,
who is sitting on my right, and Mark Lambirth of the Government
Office for London on my left. Lord Levene has most kindly agreed
to assist the Deputy Prime Minister and myself by chairing a task
force which is keeping an eye on all the new transport links to
the Millennium Experience. It is hardly necessary for me to say,
as I am sure you are aware, that he has experience of major procurement
decisions at the Ministry of Defence. He was Chairman of the Docklands
Light Railway and had a major involvement in the regeneration
of London's Docklands. We are not only lucky but extremely grateful
that we have been able to secure his services. As I have said,
Mr Lambirth is from the Government Office for London and is the
Director of Planning and Transport. I would be grateful, with
your permission, Mr Kaufman, if I could make a few introductory
remarks. I shall be very brief. I think the first point to stress
is from the outset it was clear that a celebration of the millennium
based on the Greenwich Peninsula would have to be a car-free event.
Road access to the site is not good, particularly from the north
via the very heavily congested Blackwall Tunnel. The promoters
of the Greenwich bid to host the Millennium Experience marketed
their site as an ideal base for a car-free event. The Millennium
Commission backed that vision so does the Government and the challenge
clearly now is to deliver it. That means doing two things essentially.
The first is to keep cars off the site itself and out of the adjacent
area. On the site itself there will be parking spaces only for
coaches, disabled drivers and VIPs. There will be a very tightly
enforced controlled parking zone, across an area extending up
to three miles south of the Dome. Therefore, on-street parking
close to the Dome is not an option. The second is to provide people
with a good alternative means of getting to the Dome.[1]
The Jubilee Line is much the most important means of access. It
is estimated that up to 60 per cent of all visitors could make
their final approach to the Dome by this means. There will be
those who want to walk or cycle, to travel by taxi or minicab
or use local bus services. For some it makes most sense to travel
by rail to Charlton where there will be a dedicated Millennium
Transit bus service to and from the Dome. Particularly innovative
is access to the site by river, using the new Thames 2000 service
which we have promoted. We have to take also into account the
needs of whose who will be working at the Dome as well as visitors.
We have to ensure that ticketing arrangements make it as easy
as possible for people to pre-book their transport to the Dome,
that the Blackwall Tunnel is working to maximum capacity, local
access roads are completed in good time, there is good road signing
and good passenger information for users of public transport.
Delivering this access to the Dome is a large and complex project.
Different bodies are responsible for delivering different elements.
The Government had no wish to disrupt or cut across the work of
individual projects but we did wish to ensure that they all worked
together as a team which is why the Deputy Prime Minister asked
me to convene the Millennium Access Co-ordination Group, dealing
with all aspects of access to the Millennium Experience, and why
Lord Levene was asked to chair his task force which is concentrating
on the new transport links.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, that is much appreciated.
Could I just say that if either Lord Levene or Mr Lambirth feel
they have anything to say in response to questions they will be
very welcome to give answers.
Mr Fabricant
53. It does seem to me that you have a hell of a co-ordination
problem to try and get it done, not a problem but a co-ordination
job to get done by the time of the millennium. Are you confident
it will all be complete by then?
(Glenda Jackson) I have only held the first meeting of
my Millennium Access Steering Group. I must say I was very encouraged
both with the approach of all the members to that and the clear
acknowledgement that it is by working together that we will be
able to deliver. I think it probably would be more appropriate
to look for Lord Levene to respond on the particular issue of
his co-ordination team which has met, I believe, three times.
Certainly there is a real sense, I have found, amongst all the
individual bodies who are represented of an acknowledgement that
it is by team work, by the sharing of information, and acknowledging,
which I think is particularly important, the potential of problems,
that is the way that we can actually deliver.
(Lord Levene) Certainly, Chairman, if I may add also in
response to Mr Fabricant. There is a huge task there. My group
is looking at the Jubilee Line extension, the bus from Charlton
station, all the roadworks that need to be done in terms of the
Blackwall Tunnel and coming in from the A102(M) and the river
transport. There is no lack of commitment, certainly, to the people
working on it. The biggest project, of course, is the Jubilee
Line and that is a huge undertaking. I think anybody who sees
what they are working on there, and the work that has already
been done, cannot fail to be impressed by it. As I am sure you
know, London Transport's programme now is to complete the work
and have it open in the spring of 1999, the spring of next year.
They have told me they are doing everything they possibly can
to make that progress.
54. I want to get on to river transport but if I may just follow
that one up which is simply have you any good news to tell us
regarding the signalling? While we understand that the Tube itself
will get through to the Dome, because the signalling is so high
tech and they did not have enough lead time, or so they tell us
anyway, there will be less trains per hour than was originally
intended.
(Glenda Jackson) If I could, and I am sure if Lord Levene
wishes to add anything he will. You are quite right, there was
great difficulty experienced with the signalling programme when
it was the desired outcome that there should be a moving block
form of signalling. This entailed what I was told was the sort
of cutting edge of technology. It was I think less the system
itself but the kind of software that was necessary to ensure that
it worked. This has now essentially been put to one side. The
decision has been made that signalling will be via the fixed block
method and London Transport assures us that when the line opens
in Spring 1999 there will be trains running at the rate of 24
per hour with the capacity of carrying 24,000 people. Before I
hand over to Lord Levene, could I say, as I am sure you are aware,
all the tunnelling is completed, all the track has been laid.
I touched on the issue of the signalling. The new trains are running
on the existing Jubilee Line. All the station buildings are complete.
What is required is the fitting out of stations and I am not for
one moment pretending that is not a major task in itself. The
signalling also has to be put in place and clearly there has to
be a period of running to ensure that every component has its
safety case. The big block - which is the wrong phrase - the hold
up in a sense to processing which was the idea of the moving block
signalling has now been put to one side. It is still a possibility
that eventually it will work and then London Transport envisage
in the future the possibility of 36 trains but, let there be no
doubt about this, they are concentrating on fixed block signalling
and it will deliver 24 trains per hour.
55. That is very encouraging because when London Underground came
before this Committee they were saying without the moving block
type of signalling they would only be able to look at 17 trains
an hour and 24 trains an hour with the moving blocks. This is
quite a difference.
(Glenda Jackson) That was when they envisaged opening the
line in September 1998 and then the plan was the trains would
be running at 17 per hour and then they would be increased to
24 per hour after that. As I say, now that the idea of concentrating
on the moving block has been put to one side, and they are concentrating
on the fixed block form of signalling, then they say there will
be 24 trains per hour running. I do not know if Lord Levene wants
to add anything.
(Lord Levene) Certainly I can endorse what the Minister
has said. The fixed block signalling system which they are now
going to instal, the design has been completed and it is, from
what I am told, satisfactory. Their job now is to instal it. Provided
that is installed and works on time then they can run 24 trains
per hour and certainly the traffic estimates which we have show
24 trains an hour which is almost a train every two minutes, which
is a pretty good service and will carry the requisite number of
people. There are other areas though which they have to deal with,
the work on the stations themselves and the building and installation
of the escalators. Both of these are huge tasks and a lot of effort
has to go into them, indeed a lot of effort has to go into the
whole thing, but, as I said earlier, they are very dedicated to
this, the contractors are. They are being urged on all sides,
not least by ministers, and I am trying as well to keep the pressure
on them. I think on the signalling, if the solution which they
have now developed works, and there is no reason why it should
not do because it is frankly old technology, if that works, then
hopefully the signalling ought to be a fairly straightforward
exercise to get installed.
56. Well, I will be keeping my fingers crossed. If I can just
move to river transport, when we were looking at the Millennium
Dome about six months ago, I think it was, there was a whole question
mark over the situation regarding the building of the piers, so
really, number one, where are we now with that position? Are the
piers going to be completed so that there will be plenty of access
points? My second question is this: no one should underestimate
how difficult it is to run a river service on the River Thames.
It is not like the river service along the Seine in Paris, but
because this is a tidal river, I believe you can have currents
of over 20/25 knots which means that you have to have a pretty
powerful engine just for the boat to stand still, let alone actually
move against the tide. Of course boats do do this, but it is difficult
for them to keep to a timetable, so (a) will this be in place,
(b) will the piers be available, and (c) and this, I think, is
even more important and I really address this to you as the Minister
for Transport, do you think there will be sufficient funds for
the Millennium celebrations to provide a real legacy into the
21st Century so that this river service will continue five, ten,
15 years, indefinitely after the Millennium celebrations are over,
or will it sadly mean that as soon as funds are unavailable because
the Millennium celebrations will be over, it will be an unviable
river service and just last for that short period of time?
(Glenda Jackson) Well, if I could touch on the last part
of your question first, as you know, when the Deputy Prime Minister
launched the idea of the Thames 2000 with always the proviso that
there must be a legacy service which would be part of London's
integrated transport, the response by those who already provide
services on the river and those who have interests in the river
as a mode of transport was overwhelming. People were asked to
bid for the two services that will be provided actually to the
Millennium Dome, which, as you know, is a shuttle service from
historic Greenwich to and from the Dome and an upstream express
service. The successful bidders are now working on their tenders.
It is estimated that there will be £6 million in the new
vessels that will be bought for this service and that is the responsibility
of those who have obtained the tenders to provide. White Horse
Fast Ferries will do the shuttle service between Greenwich and
the Dome and it is City Cruises who will provide the upstream
express service. To serve the actual Dome, the shuttle service
will be using two purpose-built, 60-seater boats and it is expected
that this service will be every ten minutes. The upstream express
service again will use four purpose-built boats and here the capacity
is around 500 each, and there the service is expected to be every
30 minutes. The legacy will be that there will be five 500-seaters
and eventually it is estimated that the hopper service will have
seven and they will be calling at around ten Central London piers,
the idea which the Deputy Prime Minister floated of the "string
of pearls".
57. Floated!
(Glenda Jackson) Yes, thank you. The issue of whether it
is possible to provide such services because of the difficulties
inherent in the Thames being a tidal river, this was something
I raised when I had my first meeting with those who had shown
an interest in providing services on the Thames last year and
I was assured by those who are most enthusiastic about this that
technology is such that the kind of difficulties that had been
experienced before, both with the catamaran and the other form
of buses on the river, are no longer the case and I understood
that the essential difficulties had to do with actually turning
the vessels around. It is now possible to use vessels where that
turnaround is no longer necessary and this is the change and improvement
both in design and technology. On the issue of the piers, it is
my understanding, I have absolutely no reason to doubt this, that
they are certainly on target and that they will be ready for the
Millennium. The wider legacy, as we are seeing, is that there
is greater and greater access actually to the riverside now, and
there are many more interesting sites for people to visit, the
most obvious one, I suppose, being The Globe, but there is also
an interest for all those who have some or expect to have some
form or river frontage of actually using the river as a means
of transport and this also will help to ensure that the legacy
will be a genuine legacy. Also could I just as a final point add
that of course the major issue here is that the river at the moment
is the responsibility of London Transport and it clearly will
be the responsibility of the Mayor and the Assembly when they
come in, but this form of river transport is actually integrated
into the whole of London's transport as it stands at the moment.
Chairman
58. Consequent upon questions that Mr Fabricant has put and some
of the answers you have given and together with the evidence we
have received within the last few days from London Transport,
when we had our initial inquiry into the Dome, it certainly seemed
to me, and this came out in the Report, that if there was an Achilles'
heel in the arrangements, it was the transport arrangements. I
am gratified that you, Minister, have taken over because it still
seems to me that it is an Achilles' heel and perhaps I may put
a few questions to you about that. I will ask one which is not
the major question, but I will ask about it first, and that is
the name of the station. We made a recommendation, and it may
well have been that our recommendation was not a perfect one,
but it is a fairly fuzzy statement made by London Transport about
this. Has a decision yet been made on the name of the station
other than "North Greenwich"?
(Glenda Jackson) Well, I certainly know it as North Greenwich.
I cannot remember ever having any kind of detailed discussions
on the name of this station. I am aware of the recommendation
as far as the Committee was concerned and I am very happy to raise
this with London Transport and all other interested parties.
59. Carrying on from that, we recommended in our initial Report
the possibility of a dedicated bus route. We did not have in mind
simply a dedicated bus route from Charlton. What we had in mind
was a dedicated bus route from Central London, taking into account
what we experienced ourselves when we went there, the very fast
travel time which most people still do not know about between
Greenwich and Central London through the Blackwall Tunnel. It
certainly seems to me that it is losing an opportunity not to
have a dedicated bus route from Central London which could take
some of the burden off the underground even with the 24 trains
an hour. Will you look at the question of having a dedicated bus
route not simply from Charlton, but from Central London?
(Glenda Jackson) Well, I am very happy to look at it again,
but I am not precisely clear what you mean by a dedicated bus
link. There are already, although they may not at the moment be
linked up, bus priority networks that go all around London and
certainly from the centre of London and south of the river, and
I am very happy to look at that, but I think at this stage it
would be extremely difficult to institute a brand-new dedicated
bus lane from Central London to south of the river. I can see
that there may well be value in attempting possibly to speed up
the already priority bus network, but I cannot give any guarantees
on that and although you are quite right, there is the new Millennium
Transit link from Charlton to the Dome itself, this is not the
only thing that London Buses is looking at to ensure that the
- though, however, I have to say that this is, in the main, south
of the river - existing bus routes are also clearly defined as
being an effective way of reaching the Dome, but I will certainly
raise the point when I next speak to London Buses.
1 Note by witness: Although the Minister referred to a controlled parking zone of three miles, the area is in fact up to three kilometres south of the zone. Back
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