Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60 - 79)
TUESDAY 16 JUNE 1998
GLENDA JACKSON, LORD LEVENE, and MR MARK LAMBIRTH
60. Let me clarify what I had in mind and what the Committee had
in mind. We found that at a very, very busy period indeed, it
was possible to get from the Dome site by motorcoach, which is
what we were in, to the House of Commons at a peak hour within
20 minutes. It is a very fast journey and it is a journey that
apparently can be achieved quite easily and what we thought of
was a dedicated bus route, ie, with a number on the front like
all the other London buses, which would go from somewhere like
Charing Cross through what is the Stepney Causeway, is it called
----
(Glenda Jackson) Yes.
61. ---- to the Blackwall Tunnel, and take people that way and
take them back again from the Dome to Central London either to
go home to the regions or to do other things in London. It struck
us that such a bus route would be valuable and meaningful for
the Dome and I would appreciate it if you would look at that.
(Glenda Jackson) Well, I will certainly raise it, Mr Kaufman,
at your request at my next meeting with Mr Hudson of London Buses,
but you raised the issue of a motorcoach which was dedicated exclusively
presumably for your party's service and I take on board the point
you are making, but we are looking at the potential of coaches
actually delivering people from outside London directly to the
site. As I have said, the only parking available on the site will
be that for coaches and orange badge holders and VIPs, although
the latter is something that I question. We estimate the possibility
of 150 coaches a day - that is the maximum that can be parked
on the site - and the idea that there would be an additional service
running through the Blackwall Tunnel, I think, could present difficulties
given the congested nature of the tunnel. We are looking, are
we not, at a potential opening hour of ten o'clock? I think that
is the time that NMEC have given as the opening hour for this
site.
62. What we were looking at was not from the point of view of
parking or anything like that in the sense that what we were looking
at was a red London bus with a number on the front which would
go to and from the Dome, it would not park at the Dome, but would
turn around and go straight back again, as London buses do in
all the services, so we were not looking at something for parties
to use, but we were looking at something for individuals or families
to get on in Central London and go through.
(Glenda Jackson) Yes, I appreciate that, Mr Kaufman, but
the reason I raised the fact that this was a special expedition
in a sense for your group is that if you are actually going to
put forward as a feasible means of travelling to and from the
Dome a regular bus service, albeit as an express service going
from, say, a point in Central London to the Dome itself, then
you clearly have to have more than one bus and there has to be
a timed service. We are looking at the Millennium Transit, for
instance, from Charlton directly to the Dome essentially being
a service of five minutes and I think there are difficulties there
when you are actually looking at a circular service. I know Mr
Lambirth would like to add a point, so perhaps he may be allowed
to.
(Mr Lambirth) Yes, there are just two quick points. One
is to confirm what the Minister said about the congestion of the
Blackwall Tunnel which operates on a single-tunnel basis southbound
between nine o'clock and ten o'clock which is when most visitors
would be arriving. The other one is to make the point that the
estimated journey time from Central London to the Dome via the
Jubilee Line extension is about twelve minutes and even an express
bus would be very hard pressed to operate a service which competed
on journey time with that, no matter what we threw at it, but
obviously yes, we will look at it.
(Glenda Jackson) We will certainly raise it.
(Lord Levene) Could I, Chairman, just add that as one who
travels every day and sometimes several times a day between Central
London and Canary Wharf, which is not as far as the Dome, to be
able to do that journey in 20 minutes in the rush-hour is pretty
remarkable. You must have had a very unusual day because it takes
a lot longer than that and going through the Blackwall Tunnel
and then coming into Central London from there in the rush-hour
would normally take very considerably longer than that and I think
people travelling on the Jubilee Line, once it is up and running,
will have a much smoother and much easier journey.
63. I am surprised to hear that because we left at half past two,
which is a busy time, and there was quite a lot of traffic along
the Embankment, but, nevertheless, we made it quite quickly. It
was one of the things that revealed to me that whilst the Dome
site looks very distant and difficult to access, it is in fact
not at all difficult to access and of course with the underground,
it will improve even further.
(Glenda Jackson) With respect, perhaps I might just give
you some figures of what are the actual flows within the Blackwall
Tunnel. The overall capacity of the two lanes is 3,600 vehicles
an hour, but perhaps I could just give you some idea of the traffic
flows actually on the timing. You said you were travelling around
two o'clock in the afternoon. Is that correct?
64. Two-thirty.
(Glenda Jackson) Well, between ten and eleven there are
about 1,300 vehicles. There is then a biggish gap where there
are no necessarily precise figures, but between four and five
pm, southbound, they are running at 2,800, between five and six
at 3,500 and between six and seven at 3,500 again, so there are
variables which are very much dependent on the time which affect
the number of vehicles going through the Blackwall Tunnel.
65. The other thing is with regard to river transport. One of
the suggestions that we have made which has been looked at was
that for all the methods of access which were on specific and
dedicated routes, whether it was the underground, whether it was
bus, whether it was river transport, all could be integrated into
the Travelcard system so that you could use a Travelcard on any
of them. Are we making any progress with that?
(Glenda Jackson) I think that that has been something,
certainly as far as the dedicated services are concerned, I think
I am right in saying, which has not been accepted - is that correct?
(Mr Lambirth) That is right, yes.
(Glenda Jackson) Because we are looking at a premium fare
as far as the actual boats are concerned, but there is certainly
no reason why there should not be incorporation of that post the
Millennium. The thinking behind that essentially, quite apart
from the premium fare, was that it was in a sense a way of unfairly
working against those who already have a Travelcard or perhaps
would not be using those particular means to get to the Dome and
there was a kind of hidden subsidy there.
66. The other thing, and your memorandum has something about
it in paragraph 19, is what about integrated tickets with which
it would be possible for groups or families or even individuals
to book a package for the Dome itself and for getting there and
back?
(Glenda Jackson) This is something that NMEC are working
on at the moment. As I am sure you are aware, Mr Kaufman, access
to the Dome is by ticket only and one of the proposals that they
put forward is that the purchase of the tickets should carry with
it details of possibly the most effective means of transport from
wherever the purchaser of the ticket lives actually to the Dome
and that could all be included in the price of the ticket bought.
I understand that the discussions between NMEC and the various
transport providers on this issue are going forward very well.
Mr Wyatt
67. Just on that, if you have a family of four, it is better
and it is cheaper to go by car. If the cost is £20 a head
to go into the Dome or a family ticket is £50, it is a big
gulp to go and you want the cheapest and most efficient means,
so how are you going to stop the car, physically stop it? If,
say, an extra thousand cars go through the Blackwall Tunnel at
any one point in the peak period, it blocks. I queue for an hour
sometimes coming up from my constituency. All that does is create
a longer block and back-up for ever, so, forgive me, but when
do you sort of stop the car?
(Glenda Jackson) Well, as you know, NMEC have a requirement
and there was an agreement that they would provide parking spaces,
not on the site, of, I think, slightly over 8,000 and they are
in discussions with London Transport and others on the issue of
being able to use some of the parking sites outside Central London,
and Wembley is the most obvious one that comes to mind. It would
be possible for you to buy a ticket and they are looking at the
possibility of the ticket also carrying with it a guaranteed car
parking space, but you do raise an issue which is of particular
importance and certainly one of the ways is by advertising in
that the Experience is going to be sold as a car-free event. Certainly
all tickets will carry the fact that there is no possibility at
all of parking on the site. I have already touched on the very
tightly controlled no-parking zone which will stretch for three
miles.[2] The idea has
been put up that there should be some form of, for example, either
an advertising film or possibly even a news story, but an advertising
film is something that could be shown on more than one occasion,
highlighting the impossibility of taking your car to the Dome,
contrasting the ease of getting to the Dome if you use public
transport systems, but it is going to be a combination, I think,
of the message being consistently put across and reinforcing that
message in as many imaginative and innovative ways as it is possible
so to do.
68. I think we would urge you to bring back to the Committee
at some later stage an advertising plan that actually looks at
this. It seems to me that you will need education or something
in early 1999, but continually on ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5 and
Sky a series which they may broker, or they may give you public
access for certain times in the day, but for the whole of Britain
to better understand this area which very few people visit normally,
so to come is a big day and to come to London is a big day anyway,
and they are going to have to come for two days if they come from
outside London, so not to do that and not to come back with that
plan would be remiss, I would suggest.
(Glenda Jackson) Well, I am very grateful to you for that
suggestion and I will certainly look into it. I think on the issue
of getting the message across, it may be in the main that that
is the primary responsibility of NMEC because they have the primary
responsibility for actually selling the tickets and, as I repeat,
access to the Dome will only be by advanced booking in that sense.
There will be information given and they are envisaging a type
of travel folder which, depending on where you live when you buy
your ticket, will give you details of the best ways of actually
travelling there, but I certainly will raise that at the next
meeting. You also make the point of course that a considerable
number of people will be coming to the Dome not only from areas
outside London, but also outside this country where they would
clearly need to spend a night in London and in that instance,
there again the easiest and most effective way of getting to the
Dome is via public transport, but this is again, I quite agree
with you, a message that must be reiterated.
69. In looking at Seville and Lisbon, which are EXPOs, and Hanover,
which is a rival to us, what assessment has there been of their
traffic study plans given that one has happened, one is just happening
and one is arriving?
(Glenda Jackson) I am not in a position to be able to answer
that question, but I can certainly obtain the relevant information
and forward it to you.
70. It would be interesting to see how they are coping with the
traffic because certainly Lisbon expects 8 to 12 million and Hanover
expects 20 million.
(Glenda Jackson) Yes. I was recently in Lisbon and I actually
visited the EXPO site and although I was not there for any length
of time actually to examine in any kind of detail their public
transport, they have an extremely efficient system of buses and
they also have a major interchange which is the underground and
the railway system. I was not aware that there was an excessive
amount of space for car parking, in fact I cannot remember seeing
any, but clearly this is the beginning of the EXPO and I think
I am not in a position to be able to give you any further detail.
71. Would I be right in thinking that you said there would be
a coach park for 150 coaches a day?
(Glenda Jackson) The capacity for the parking of coaches
is 150. I believe that is the number of coaches that are expected.
That is the capacity number, yes.
72. So if I wanted to bring a party up from my constituency,
would I have to apply to a coach licensee? How do you stop 10,000
coaches turning up or ten?
(Glenda Jackson) Because, as I say, access to the Dome
is not possible without a ticket and they cannot be bought on
site. Nobody can drive up on spec. and say, "We are going
to the Millennium Experience" as that is not possible. One
of the ideas that NMEC have is that there should be a proportion
of tickets, for example, available at the usual outlets, such
as travel agents, or indeed for coach tour providers.
73. But we have seen just lately at Westminster Abbey that it
is now £6 to turn a coach around. We know how coach operators
work. They know every trick in the book. Will there be, as well
as a no-car, a no-coach area unless that coach is properly branded?
(Glenda Jackson) Well, this is an issue that we have been
looking at and I think we are at the first stages of examining
this and not only ensuring that there are no coaches which are
going to arrive with no tickets, therefore, they have no access
to the Dome, but also on the issue of routing coaches, I know
Lord Levene has been looking at this and perhaps he would like
to fill in some detail about how a coach can validly get on to
the site.
(Lord Levene) Indeed. The plan that we are looking at is
that if, as you suggest, Mr Wyatt, a family were coming, a set
of four people, they would buy from a coach operator a combined
coach and entrance ticket to the exhibition. The coach operator
would only be able to sell those tickets provided they had a pre-booked
parking space for the coach within the exhibition coach park and
if any coach turned up at the perimeter, if you like, wherever
that might be put, which did not have a reserved space, it would
not be able to go in. It is as simple as that and I think, as
you say, the coach operators are very wise, they know the ways
of the world, and if they know that there is no way they can get
into the site without a coach park pass and without the people
who are on board the coach having pre-booked tickets, there will
be no point in their taking people there.
74. Finally, on the river transport, have there been any discussions
on linking, say, Sheerness and Rochester or Southend to Canvey
Island and making those nodal points so that people could come
up the river? Has there been any interest shown or have there
been any plans to look at that area?
(Glenda Jackson) No, they were not plans which were part
of the initial tender, not least because I would imagine the journey
times would not make those kind of distances valid for actually
delivering people to the Dome.
(Mr Lambirth) Could I clarify some numbers on the coaches
for the record so as not to mislead the Committee? NMEC have planning
permission for 350 spaces for coaches to park at the site and
they are actually planning to provide 300 spaces at the site.
Their expectation is that at the maximum they will have about
150 coaches per session and that is about 12 per cent of the total
visitor numbers travelling by coach, and it equates to about 100
to 150 coaches.
Mr Fraser
75. First of all, I would like to commend you on taking on this
great task because I suspect that it may be an extremely onerous
one given the complications of what is being discussed because
clearly transportation to the site is the most vitally important
aspect of a visit to the Millennium Experience, clearly. We must
add obviously to this great package of discussions about how people
get there the fact that the Secretary of State told us this morning
and has said previously that because of the nature of what is
being shown and because of the nature of what Britain is doing
for the Millennium celebration, we are going to be inundated with
foreigners coming to this country, with people spreading themselves
around, displacing themselves from one part of the country, going
to other parts, and doing all of this not just once, but throughout
the year. I am afraid that what I have heard this morning leaves
me in no doubt that this is a complete confusion, not from your
side, but in terms of how it has been managed so far and we are
going to land up, if we are not careful, with a complete dog's
breakfast. First of all, the Jubilee Line extension has been delayed
twice and you have given us assurance this morning that it is
going to come on line some time in the spring of next year, but
what contingency plan does the Department have if that does not
happen and, more precisely, if there are breakdowns, given, if
I just may add to that, the fact that I believe you said that
the 24 trains per hour and then up to 36 trains per hour is an
awful lot if there is a problem with the line ----
(Glenda Jackson) I do not wish to interrupt you, but, with
respect, 36 trains an hour are only possible with the moving-block
form of signalling, but the fixed-block, which they are now engaged
on, will indeed deliver 24 trains per hour. I do not know if you
have had any ----
76. No, the point with that was that if there are breakdowns with
the system, you are suggesting that 24,000 people - and I tried
writing these figures down - will use that transport. Is your
colleague saying no?
(Mr Lambirth) The capacity of the system is 24,000, but
fewer might actually use it.
77. Okay, but perhaps I can put the scenario, if I may, that the
attraction opens at ten o'clock in the morning, just at the tail
end of the rush-hour, and we have got from Mr Wyatt the point
very well made that people are going to use the cheapest form
of transport to get on to the site and I have to say that I am
not convinced, regardless of how much advertising one puts out,
that people are going to use a different form of transport from
that which they wish to use for their own convenience because
we are a car-loving nation and that will be the first choice,
and that is my opinion. We were given evidence from London Transport
that it will be like using a train in the rush-hour. I have a
family, I have two children, and I would never, ever, ever take
my children on a rush-hour train in Central London and that is
no way, in my opinion, to get to a site when we are told by the
Minister Without Portfolio that you will want to spend at least
five, six, seven hours there, so people will be leaving at the
crack of dawn. Add to the confusion 150 coaches coming into London
and Lord Levene's comment that if some get there without tickets,
they will have to get out of the way, well, how do you reverse
a coach back into the traffic that is coming in? We are in for
an enormous pile-up and I cannot see, given the timetable you
have, that this is going to be overcome.
(Glenda Jackson) Well, if I could just set it in context,
what we are actually looking at here for every performance, for
every Experience is a maximum of 35,000 people and that is the
equivalent of a football match every Saturday in a sense. We were
all concerned about the possibility that the opening time would
be such that, as you quite rightly point out, people who do not
know London and certainly do not know how to get across London
could be somewhat confused in having to travel at that time. My
understanding from NMEC is that ten o'clock is the actual opening
hour and certainly we have been reassured by London Underground
that there will be no particular difficulties and in fact the
rush-hour is over before people who will be presumably in Central
London will need to be actually getting on to the Jubilee Line,
which it is estimated will carry 60 per cent of the people out
on to the Dome. You raised the issue of a contingency plan and
it would be irresponsible, I put it no higher than that, if indeed
we did not ask for, and indeed if LT were not engaged in, a contingency
plan on the basis, as you quite rightly point out, of possibly
potential teething troubles or minor breakdowns. They are indeed
working on this contingency plan at the moment. Could I, however,
add as a rider to that that before the public will be allowed
to ride on the Jubilee Line extension, I think it will be six
months running where there will be staff and other volunteers
actually using the trains on the line to try and iron out any
potential glitches or teething troubles, which it is inevitable
will be the case on a civil engineering project of this kind and
given the modernity of what is going to be produced, so there
is certainly that contingency plan there. We believe, given that
we have a fairly accurate breakdown of the kind of modal movements
and given that the work is engaged in a genuine team sense, that
it will not be the kind of dog's breakfast that you have referred
to.
78. I hope dearly it will not be, but I suspect it will. Given
the fact that we have just experienced a rail strike in London
only yesterday and today, is your Department going to take on
responsibility for ensuring that the unions that run this particular
route will not be allowed to strike during the Millennium year?
(Glenda Jackson) Well, that is not really a question that
my Department would have any kind of overall responsibility for.
Could I just say in the light of that remark that certainly what
London Underground has told us is that in fact yesterday they
were running more than 60 per cent of the trains and certainly
people I have spoken to who actually travelled on the underground
have said it was one of their most pleasant experiences for quite
some time on those lines which are running.
79. Well, I accept that it might be for those that got on it,
but then for those that did not get on it, driving up from our
constituencies or down from our constituencies on a Monday morning
adds more pressure to the roads which inevitably it will do if
there is a strike on the underground and 60 per cent success on
the Jubilee Line is a gross underestimate of what the capacity
should be to get all those people on to the site.
(Glenda Jackson) No, when I referred to the 60 per cent,
that is the modal percentage of the use of the Jubilee Line extension
to actually go to the Dome.
(Lord Levene) Could I just come back on one point which
Mr Fraser made about the coaches? I think it is not in fact going
to be the case, as you suggest, that there will be complete chaos
with the coaches. We have plenty of experience in this country
and if you take an event like the Cup Final where something like
double the number of people who are likely to visit the Millennium
Exhibition go there, huge numbers travel by coach and the coaches
do have somewhere to park and they do get in. They arrive, the
people arrive, they get off the coaches, they come back, they
get away again. That is something which takes place once a year.
Now, this is going to be taking place every day for a year and
I think one can allocate a little bit more good sense to the coach
operators, who are largely not cowboys, that they will know, they
will learn the ropes and they will learn how to get there. There
may be some difficulties until they get used to it, but it is
not going to get into a situation where there is great chaos and
strings of coaches trying to get in which are not booked because
I think they will know that if they have got passengers on board
and they do not have any reserved space to go to, the passengers
are not going to be very happy. I just do not think people are
going to be as stupid as that.
2 Note by witness: Although the Minister referred to a controlled parking zone of three miles, the area is in fact up to three kilometres south of the zone. Back
|
