Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 199)
THURSDAY 9 JULY 1998
MR
PETER
MANDELSON
and MISS
CLARE
PILLMAN
Chairman
180. I would like to intervene at this point,
to follow up the points that Mr Maxton has been putting forward.
You will recall that this was an area that we emphasised very
strongly in our first Report on this issue. We are gratified
that since then Glenda Jackson has been appointed to look after
the transport arrangements; but it does seem to us, from discussions
we have had both at the Dome site and elsewhere, that this is
an area where a great deal more work needs to be done. We were
at the time far from satisfied with the approach of London Underground,
and I cannot myself say that I am satisfied now with the approach
of London Underground; so could I perhaps put a series of questions
to you on this, and then there is another area that arises from
what Mr Maxton has been asking that I would like to put to you,
which is, in a sense, the reverse. First of all, and I recognise
fully that these are responsibilities of the Department of the
Environment, Transport and the Regions, but, nevertheless, it
is going to be an integrated Experience, which people will need
to enjoy, or not be frustrated by in every way, and therefore
I put them to you too.
(Mr Mandelson) I am quite
used to, as you know, answering questions and taking the rap for
things for which I have absolutely no responsibility whatsoever,
Mr Kaufman; so, fire ahead.
181. At this point, there is no rap to be taken,
but we hope there will be no rap to be taken while we are putting
these questions. First of all, the Jubilee Line Extension. When
we looked at the new station next to the Dome, which we on this
Committee still hope will be called Dome rather than North Greenwich,
we were concerned at what we were told, namely, that although
London Underground is now committed, and I hope will fulfil that
commitment, to have the Extension running by March of next year,
and in addition to that affirms that it will be running 24 trains
an hour and not the 17 which at one time it said it would have
to fall back on, nevertheless, those plans do not seem to be as
firm and as clear as they should be. We were told at the station,
when we were there, that they could not now rely on the trains
being able to stop at Westminster when the Extension is open next
year. Now I am not here asking specifically about Westminster,
that is a different question, and it is a partial one, which I
do not want to raise, but when misgivings are voiced by those
who run the London Underground that they will not be able to run
a full and continuous service on the Extension when it is opened
next Spring, one can be forgiven for having misgivings about the
project as a whole. And I think this Committee, obviously what
we conclude will be in our Report, would welcome from you an assurance
that you are keeping a very, very stringent eye on that, because
if that does not work, if that is not open properly, if it is
not running, and if the 24 trains an hour are not running by December 31
of next year, then there is going to be a very, very great difficulty
in delivering people to the Dome?
(Mr Mandelson) I am absolutely
firm in my view, in my confidence, that London Underground will
deliver the Jubilee Line Extension in time, that it will be a
full and continuous service, running between Stanmore and Stratford
and taking in Greenwich, that is going to deliver the overwhelming
bulk of visitors, of the travelling public, to the Dome during
the year 2000. Now you are right in saying that I do not have
direct ministerial responsibility for this. Not only does the
Minister for Transport in London, Glenda Jackson, have a very
direct responsibility but the Deputy Prime Minister himself has
a very full and continuous interest in this; indeed, before I
came here this morning, Chairman, I saw the Deputy Prime Minister,
we just passed in the Cabinet Office, and he started to talk to
me again about it, and he does so because it is high in his mind,
high in his priorities, and I am very glad it is. And I think
he was right to say to London Underground, which, as you know,
he has brought about some management shake-up in, and, some would
say, not before time, and I think that will show considerable
return, but I think he is right also to make sure that there are
management consultants who are properly invigilating the progress
that London Underground are making on a weekly and fortnightly
basis. This is not some periodic visit from some folk from outside,
just sort of to have a nice chat and a lunch and to see how things
are going, this is very detailed scrutiny indeed of all aspects
of the construction of the Extension. And not only are these
external consultants working on this but, as you know, the Deputy
Prime Minister has also appointed Lord Levene to give him and
Glenda Jackson fortnightly updates on the progress that is being
made. And as you know, too, Glenda Jackson has an Access Co-ordinating
Group, and that has already met twice, I believe, and that she
receives reports between meetings from Lord Levene, as I do myself.
Everything that could humanly, physically, practically, be done
by this Government is being done to make sure that the Jubilee
Line Extension is delivered on time, and I believe that it will
be, I believe that the Extension and that through-service will
be open months in advance of the opening of the Dome, thereby
providing that essential public transport link and delivery of
visitors to the Dome.
182. I have had the opportunity of discussing
these matters informally with the Deputy Prime Minister too, and
I very much welcome his commitment on that, but I would like to
continue on this. One of the matters that we have been discussing
as a Committee is the question of dedicated bus routes, not charter
coaches but London Transport buses being able to take people on
a numbered route from central London to the Dome. Because I was
impressed, again, when we were at the site a couple of weeks ago,
by the speed at which you can get from the Dome to central London,
using the Blackwall Tunnel and the Stepney link as well. Now
when we raised this matter recently, we were told, yes, there
is going to be a dedicated bus route from Charlton station to
the Dome, okay, that helps, but certainly I would be very much
more encouraged if I knew that, for that period, perhaps longer
but certainly for that period, there was going to be a red London
bus which people could pick up at stops in central London and
along the way, on which they could ride to the Dome, with frequent
services. Now an argument has been put that the nature of the
Blackwall Tunnel is such that it is difficult to have a scheduled
bus route in addition to all of the other traffic, but I would
have thought that, with the time that is available between now
and the end of next year, those are matters that could be dealt
with and problems solved. So, speaking for myself, the Committee
will make its own decisions when it reports, I would be very grateful
if you could look again at the question of dedicated red London
bus routes from central London to the Dome site?
(Mr Mandelson) I understand,
Chairman, that a number of main bus routes will take in the Dome,
that is not precisely the same as what you are describing. I
know you did take this up with Glenda Jackson and she undertook
to discuss this with London Transport and I know she will do,
if she needs any reminding I will certainly do that. But, I think,
in all these travel and transport arrangements, we have to understand
this, that the transport operators see this as a huge opportunity
to meet public demand for travel, which will be different and
bigger, on a scale which they have not taken on for any such event
before. I believe they will rise to the occasion, they will rise
to the occasion because it is both in their public and their commercial
interest to do so. They want to supply transport services to
meet this new and unique demand for transport that the Millennium
Experience is creating. And I think that we will find that not
only in London but coach and train and transport operators all
over the country will be falling over themselves to provide the
discounted fares and the proper integration with the ticketing
arrangements, because they want people to travel with them, they
are not going to want to sort of turn them away, or turn their
backs on them, they are going to embrace them, welcome them, and
bring them on to their systems. And I think that a combination
of market economics and public spiritedness will work very, very
effectively in these transport arrangements. But, on your specific
point about the bus, I will make sure that Glenda is following
this up with London Transport.
183. Thank you. I only wish that London Transport,
as it now exists, lived up to the kind of vision that you quite
appropriately put forward. When I stand for 20 minutes,
waiting for a 274, or a 13, or something, their dedication does
not strike me as absolutely wholehearted and reliable. The other
matter, on access, that we discussed, and on which at that time
London Transport did not seem wholly focused, was what John Maxton
has already raised with you, namely park and ride. What we put
to you and was in our previous Report was a very carefully worked
out park and ride system on the periphery of London, whereby at
Underground stations and at railway stations, obviously designated,
there could be very considerable parking arrangements which would
accommodate people in a structured park and ride system. Again,
we would be interested to know how you are getting on with that?
(Mr Mandelson) As you
know, Chairman, the Company has taken this Committee's advice,
and we did, following your last inquiry and Report, think very
carefully again about what our plans were, and, as you know, we
have revised them quite radically. The fact is that there is
considerable unused capacity at Underground and railway stations
across London, and it would be absurd to encourage every single
car to descend on simply three or four new car parks created for
the purpose in the vicinity of the Dome when they can just as
easily, and in a way that is much better for them, not plough
their way all the way through the suburbs and central London but
park at places with existing capacity, near tube and rail stations,
and simply switch very easily on to the Underground system, on
to the Jubilee Line Extension, which will take them within minutes
straight to the Dome. So I think that is right. I am very glad
that our decision to utilise that existing capacity is being taken
up with some enthusiasm by Underground and rail companies, and
I think that, with their help, we will be able to identify appropriate
capacity which will be supplied on a much greater scale than will
be needed in different parts of London. And that will be better
for everyone concerned, better for the Dome, better for the residents
of Greenwich, but better for the travelling public.
Mr Maxton
184. Most people, driving from most areas outside
London, if they are travelling by car, will travel on the motorway
system, and that does seem to me where there is no link in to
any form of park and ride to the Dome; by that, I mean, from motorway
stations. Most people prefer not to come off the motorway at
all, except to go into the service station, then get a bus, or
coach, whatever it might be, to the Dome. Has any thought been
given to something like that, because that seems to me to be,
from a driver's point of view, the easiest way to do it?
(Mr Mandelson) Thought
will be given to that, I can assure you, because every eventuality
and every possibility is being very closely examined, and I observe
and witness and sometimes make a contribution to endless discussions
about this, taking me to parts of London and parts of the public
transport system that I had never heard of and never knew existed.
But, when people come off the motorway, the important point,
surely, is to enable them to park as quickly and as simply as
possible the moment they sort of hit the outer suburbs and environs
of London. Wembley is a very good example of that. It is very
easy to come off the motorway system and to get to Wembley, to
park at Wembley, as it will be possible to do, and to get straight
on to the tube system. Now that will be the case in different
parts of London, as you reach different entry points to the capital.
Chairman
185. A converse matter, and then I will call
Mr Stott to ask a supplementary on this. When we first visited
the Dome, it struck me that this was going to be such an attraction
that many more than the 12 million anticipated might attend,
and, indeed, when we went to Glasgow, a couple of weeks ago, and
were talking about what they were doing there, they mentioned
in passing that the Glasgow Garden Festival, some years ago, which
lasted only six months, attracted five million people. And it
did strike me that if five million people go to a garden festival
in Glasgow, around a decade ago, in six months, then, I am not
denigrating Glasgow, I would not dare to do so in the presence
of Mr Maxton, but, nevertheless, this enormously publicised Dome,
open for a year, could quite likely attract a considerably larger
number than 12 million, and, therefore, serious bottlenecks
might arise in access. Are those matters that are being looked
at?
(Mr Mandelson) But our
job then is to even out the flow of visitors, as far as we can,
and I think that the fact that we have decided to adopt a pre-booking
system for the purchase of tickets will enable us to do that.
The fact is that you will not be able to decide on the spur of
the moment that, "Today I'm going to go to the Dome",
you just sort of get into your car and turn up at the door and
say, "Well, here I am, can I have my ticket, please?".
You can decide on the day to go but you have then to pre-book
your ticket, you have to get on to the call centre and say, "I
want to go to the Dome today, are there tickets left?", it
is like going to a show, you do not often appear at a show on
spec., especially one that is as popular as the Millennium Experience
is going to be, you ring up first and say, "Is there a seat,
is there room?". And that is what people will do, and in
that way we will be able both to avoid disappointment and avoid
bottlenecks. The maximum flow of visitors, the 35,000 capacity,
is certainly a visitor capacity that will not overtax and overburden
the transport system, the transport network. There will also
be, as I know you have taken up in previous questioning, the other
attractions, of Baby Dome, which will have a 5,000-seater capacity,
but that too, given that the attractions will be taking place
at different points in the day, and given the numbers, will be
easily manageable. But the pre-booking system, in principle,
is the key to evening out visitor flow, which is why I think the
Company were right to construct that approach.
Mr Stott
186. Minister, it is almost 20 years ago since
you and I and the Deputy Prime Minister were minor functionaries
in the Shadow Transport team; nonetheless, I think we have an
important role to play.
(Mr Mandelson) I think
I was the minor functionary, I was the research assistant, the
bag-carrier and the fetcher of your coffee.
187. Not mine, but I was not very far behind
you. But, talking about moving people either on a bus route or
on a train, what about the river - what about the river; you have
a brilliant, natural highway out there, on the River Thames.
What discussions are you having with organisations that could
actually provide river-borne transportation down to the Dome?
(Mr Mandelson) I am glad
you mention that, because we are expecting one million people
to travel by boat from central London, using the new pier and
river services; that is a lot of people. It is a tremendously
important opening up of the Thames, it is a considerable investment
in the capital's river and what it has to offer and its use, and,
of course, will be a permanent legacy. The Deputy Prime Minister,
as you know, announced, in March, I think, of this year, Thames
2000, and that is an initiative to which £21 million
is being allocated to boost new passenger transport services in
London, using the river. It will really, I think, add to people's
day out and their whole experience to be able to travel simply
and quite speedily down the Thames to Greenwich, and it is something
that we are going to be very proud of, and the string of pearls,
i.e. the new piers that are going to be created, along that important
central stretch of the Thames, is also going to be a tremendous
improvement, and very important.
Mr Fabricant
188. Good morning7. I really want to question
you on the long-term legacy of the Dome, but before that I just
want to ask you this. You know, you criticised, earlier on, some
of the media for being critical of the Dome, and I think it is
partly because we are only 17 months away from the opening, and
yesterday, when we were questioning Jennie Page and Bob Ayling,
it was hard to get any definite answer about anything, about what
was going to be precisely in the Dome, precisely what sponsorship
there was; in fact, the only definite answer we got was from Bob
Ayling, when he said that reports in the Jewish Chronicle that
Bar Mitzvahs would be held in the Worship Zone, which is a part
of the Spirit Zone, were untrue and there would not be Bar Mitzvahs
there. Now, the point is this, you used an expression, a past
participle, "identified", you said that you have identified
£100 million worth of sponsorship, and I am curious,
because that was the very word used by both Jennie Page and Bob
Ayling yesterday, "identified" £100 million
worth of sponsorship. What does identified £100 million
worth of sponsorship mean: have you got it?
(Mr Mandelson) Yes. I
am not quite sure what the significance of the word is.
189. It is the word you used yourself, and it
seemed an odd word to use?
(Mr Mandelson) It was
not loaded with particular meaning.
190. Good. So, by "identified", you
mean you have £100 million worth of sponsorship, signed
up and sealed?
(Mr Mandelson) We have
£100 million worth of private sponsorship which is sort
of agreed - - -
191. Sorry, sort of what?
(Mr Mandelson) Agreed,
there, existing, they are going to do it. What are you getting
at?
192. Do you have £100 million worth
of sponsorship, yes or no, because it is just the word "identified"
seems an odd expression to use?
(Mr Mandelson) Yes, yes,
yes.
193. When I was in business I would not identify
a sale, I would either have the sale or not, I would either have
the contract or not. Have you closed the deal, if you like, whereby
you have £100 million worth of sponsorship agreed, under
contract?
(Mr Mandelson) Obviously,
there will be plenty more discussions going on, day in,
day out, week in, week out, about precisely what that money is
going to be spent on. But, if you are asking me, do we have that
sum available to us, the answer is, emphatically, yes.
194. Irrevocably?
(Mr Mandelson) What do
you think might happen; what is going to intervene?
195. If some figure is not signed up, what might
happen is they might disagree with your plans and then the £100 million,
or some of it, may evaporate?
(Mr Mandelson) They are
showing no signs of doing so, so I do not see any reason why they
should.
196. Alright. And just one more supplementary
on that, before I get on to the legacy side of things. There
are going to be 14 Zones, I understand; is it true to say that
at the moment only four of the Zones do have sponsorship?
(Mr Mandelson) No, I do
not think that is true. I think that it is something in
the region more of five or six. In all this sponsorship, remember
that we are matching investment from the private sector not only
in the Zones themselves but in the associated National Programme
as well, in certain cases. Let me try to give you an example.
Marks and Spencer, they are investing in the National Identity
Zone, UK@Now; they are also funding Children's Promise, which,
as you know, is the UK-wide programme to persuade everyone, or
everyone who wishes to, to give their earnings in the last hour
of this millennium to help children in need in the next millennium.
That is part of our National Programme, it reflects and provides
a vehicle, a very important vehicle, for the values of the Millennium
Experience and its overall theme Time to Make a Difference. But
that sense of giving, of responsibility, of caring for others,
and putting into society and not simply taking out, is one of
the important set of values which underpin the Millennium Experience,
and you know was set out in the document 'Values at Greenwich',
which we originally discussed with and agreed with the Lambeth
Group that meets regularly. Let me give you another example.
Tescos, they are investing heavily in the Learn Zone, but they
are also funding SchoolNet 2000, and the creation of a modern-day
Domesday-Book, with rather different technology being employed
than the original Doomsday-Book, in which, through writing, through
poems and different images, children all over the country will
be able to record how they live, their local communities and what
they do, so that that will be a permanent record for all time.
So, in different ways, this is constant discussions, new ideas,
new commitments being made, not only to the Zones within the Dome
but to the associated National Programme, and that is what I mean
when I say that discussions between the Company and different
sponsors are continuing. But the principle of their commitment
is firm, and I have not heard of any indication of any company
that is having second thoughts.
197. And what proportion, out of interest, is
that of the total sponsorship that you need?
(Mr Mandelson) Our target
is £150 million, which we hope very much we will raise
by the turn of the year; and, given that we have raised that sum
so far since we started, we started in February, we are now July,
that is quite good going, actually, for that period. So I am
optimistic. And I think that, as people see more and more that
we are on time and on budget, when they see that we are able to
deliver the very ambitious plans and targets that we set for ourselves
at the outset, then people learn more and more about the contents
and the interior of the Dome, the greater is their confidence,
and confidence is rising all the time with every week and every
month that passes. And that is certainly reflected in the private
sector and prospective sponsors, as it is within the Company and
the country at large.
198. But the weeks and the months, they are passing,
the clock is ticking; when will you be in a position to finalise
what is going to be in these various Zones? You have only just
heard, for example, that the Body Zone has changed, yet again.
When is the ticketing going to be finalised? All the sorts of
questions that both this Committee and the media are raising;
when are the questions finally going to be answered, when is the
picture finally going to be set?
(Mr Mandelson) We do not
take a sort of snapshot at any particular point in time - - -
199. No, but you have got to firm up at some
stage?
(Mr Mandelson) Between
now and the opening, until we get to the opening. I want that
snapshot picture at the time of the opening on 1 January
2000, as it will be, to have everything in place, and it will
be, everything will be in place for the opening at that time.
But it would be silly, obviously, to take a snapshot now, in
July 1998, and say "This is it"; it ain't it until it
is completed and it is open for business and the public are pouring
in through the doors and enjoying it. You refer to the Body;
well, that has not changed, actually, the concept and the design
brief for that is exactly as it was announced in February. Of
course, as Jennie Page discussed with you yesterday, when you
were questioning her on this, quite rightly, there are all sorts
of aspects and facets of it, visitor throughput, health and safety,
uses of different technology, all these things are being developed
all the time, and they will be, but that does not mean to say
that we are moving sort of off target, away from the concept,
going back to the drawing-board and thinking again, that is not
the case. But, remember, that the interior, the actual construction
of the Zones, is not within our timetable, in our critical path,
set to begin until the Autumn of this year, and we are now only
in July.
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