Examination of witnesses (Questions 1
- 9)
TUESDAY 7 JULY 1998
MR JOHN
ANTHONY, MR
MARTIN TUMELTY
and MR DAVID
PEWTER
Chairman
1. Welcome to the Committee, Mr Anthony.
I will call on you to make a brief introduction of your colleagues
and if you want to say a few brief opening words you are welcome
to do so. We then have a few questions to ask you. What we would
like you and all the other witnesses to do is, if it is possible,
stay on after your section of evidence—we have effectively
four groups of evidence all relating to the same issues—just
in case you want to say anything on something which arises in
subsequent sections. We would be grateful if you are able to stay
and listen to what is happening and if need be ask to come back
to add to what you have said. So if you could introduce your team,
we would be grateful.
(Mr Anthony) Thank you, Sir. My name is John Anthony,
I am the Technical Officer for the UK Weighing Federation, which
is the trade association representing weighing machine manufacturers,
repairers and installers in the United Kingdom. I am accompanied
this morning by Mr Martin Tumelty, who is the technical director
for Salter Weigh-tronix, one of the largest manufacturers in the
United Kingdom, and Mr Tumelty is a member of the Federation's
legal metrology working group. Also with me is Mr David Pewter,
Legal Metrology manager for Herbert & Sons, again a large
UK manufacturer and also a member of the Federation's working
group on legal metrology. Our position on the proposed Deregulation
Order and the situation of allowing us to verify nationally approved
weighing equipment and automatic weighing equipment is that we
are whole-heartedly in support of the Order. We have been campaigning
for many years, since the original Eden Committee report,[1]
for legislation to allow us to verify our own equipment. As an
industry we have had now some five years' experience of verification
under the EC Directive on non-automatic weighing instruments.
We believe in total there are something like 50,000 weighing machines
which the industry has verified in that five years with, I think,
as far as the Federation is aware, only two or three problems
in those five years, and those problems have been resolved by
discussion between industry and the trading standards departments.
So we believe we have a great deal of experience. We have shown
as an industry we are capable of providing a verification service
equal in quality to that provided by the trading standards departments,
and we believe it is a logical step for the industry and the legislation
to take now to extend that power to all weighing equipment.
2. Thank you. What proportion of companies
involved in the manufacture of weighing equipment do you estimate
will take up the option of becoming self-verifiers? In answering
that question, it would be useful if you would say what percentage
of weighing machines that would actually cover.
(Mr Anthony) The situation is that under the present
legislation which allows us to self-verify EC-approved machines,
we have about ten companies who are now carrying out self-verification
activities. Under the legislation as proposed, of our 106 member
companies in the Federation we would expect in the first year
there would be 10 to 15 which would take up the option. That would
increase in the second year to perhaps 30 or 40 and in the third
year move on to encompass the vast majority of the industry. In
terms of percentage of weighing machines, the market is divided
roughly 70 per cent for non-automatic weighing instruments, 30
per cent for automatic weighing instruments, so for new equipment
we are almost at the stage where 70 per cent could be self-verified
at the moment. The market sector of 30 per cent for automatic
machines we see growing over time. The growth of the industry
is coming in the automatic sector rather than the non-automatic
sector, so we think that will increase.
3. Of the 10 to 15 that you said would come
in right at the start, how many machines would they actually cover?
Obviously the number of companies does not necessarily give an
indication of the percentage. It could be the largest ones which
come in straight away or it could be the smallest ones. Could
you give some indication of that?
(Mr Anthony) We would expect it would be the larger
companies first of all, companies like Herbert's, like Salter
Weigh-tronix, Avery-Berkel and we would expect that probably something
like 60 per cent of the machines that are either on the market
or in service and need verification or re-verification would be
covered by those first 10 to 15 applicants.
Chairman: I only ask
that because it puts it in perspective and it is helpful for us
to know.
Mr Chaytor
4. Could I ask if you have any fears that
allowing self-verification to overseas companies will in any way
undermine the status of the industry?
(Mr Anthony) In the weighing machine industry,
we would think not, because we are already in the situation where
overseas companies in Europe at least can self-verify or verify
non-automatic weighing machines under the EEC Directive and ship
them into the UK, and there has been no evidence that machines
verified elsewhere in Europe and moved into the UK have resulted
in any lowering of standards. As far as automatic weighing machines
are concerned, although in theory overseas manufacturers will
be able to apply for approval to self-verify, the vast majority
of automatic weighing equipment would need to be verified on site
at the point of installation, so for us as an industry it is unlikely
to be a problem.
5. Pursuing that point, if there were a
problem, in terms of these criminal sanctions which would apply
to overseas companies or the inspection regime which would be
required on these companies, do you have any fears that their
standards may be more lax than they might be in the UK?
(Mr Anthony) Speaking personally, and my colleagues
are also involved with companies overseas so they will be able
to elaborate, my knowledge of the standards which are applied
certainly in the rest of Europe, in the areas where the major
manufacturers are, which is Germany, Switzerland, France and Italy,
the standards are applied equally as stringently as they are in
the UK. So we have no problems there. Our one worry about extending
the powers to overseas manufacturers was a slight concern that
there would be a double-jeopardy faced by UK manufacturers. If
they should do something wrong in verification, they would be
subject to two sanctions—the withdrawal of their approval
and a possible criminal prosecution—whereas an overseas
manufacturer would only suffer withdrawal of the approval and
there would be no criminal sanction. But that is an objection
in principle only, we have no worries from the industry point
of view.
Mrs Lait
6. What percentage of weighing machines
come into the UK from outside the EU and do you have any concerns
about their verification processes?
(Mr Pewter) The majority of weighing equipment
which comes in from outside the EU is from Japan, Teraoka—via
DIGI Europe or DIGI originally.[2]
The vast majority of weighing equipment comes into the UK via
permanent sites and because we control the manufacture of that
side we actually do the verification ourselves, so we do not really
have a problem there. The automatic stuff which is of that origin
is actually manufactured in this country by one of their companies
in Suffolk, so once again although it is coming in from places
like Japan it is still controlled by UK origins.
(Mr Tumelty) It needs to be said that that already
exists under EEC rules. The deregulation we are talking about
there is for previously approved products, pre-1993, so bringing
a new product in under that rule is not possible. So it does not
really affect the current situation.
Mr Stewart
7. Does the weighing industry expect that
the costs of local authority verification will rise because of
this Order?
(Mr Anthony) I would expect that the cost of local
authority verification will rise. Obviously when income is withdrawn
from local authorities by manufacturers doing their own verification,
the fixed costs the local authorities have remain the same and
one would expect them to at least try to recover those costs.
So, inevitably, there will be a rise in the cost of verification
for those people who do not do their own verifications.
Mr Randall
8. Mr Anthony, I think in your opening statement
you mentioned the problems which have arisen with self-verification
in respect of non-automatic weighing machines. Could you reiterate
the figures you mentioned?
(Mr Anthony) We believe that there are around
50,000 machines which have been verified by manufacturers since
1993. As a Federation we are aware of three instances where there
have been disagreements or concerns expressed by trading standards
officers about the standard of the verification.
Chairman
9. Is there anything you feel you need to
say which we have not asked at this stage?
(Mr Anthony) I do not think so, Sir. I think we
have expressed all the points we wanted to in response to the
consultation papers and we are grateful you have given us the
opportunity to be here this morning.
Chairman: Thank you
very much. As I said, if you could stay here we would be grateful
because something may arise—I do not know what will come
forward—in the other parts of the proceedings.
1 Report of the Committee on the Metrological Control
of Equipment for use for Trade (Chairman E N Eden). (Cmnd 9545)
June 1985. Back
2
As far as I am aware, all the weighing equipment coming in from
Teraoka has been submitted for EC-type approval against the requirements
of 90/384/EEC therefore it falls outside the scope of this proposed
legislation. Back
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