Examination of witnesses (Questions 77
- 99)
TUESDAY 31 MARCH 1998
MR JEFF
ROOKER, MP
AND MR
DUDLEY COATES
Chairman
77. Good morning, Minister, and welcome
to you and to Mr Coates. I do not know whether there is anything
you would like to say by way of a preamble? Some of our `subjects',
if I might call them that, do, or we can go straight into questions,
as you wish. You very kindly presented us with a document outlining
your position anyway. Is there anything you want to add to that?
(Mr Rooker) Not really. I am accompanied by Dudley
Coates, who is head of MAFF's Environment Group division. I am
very pleased that this Committee has been set up and, looking
at what you have done so far, I am very pleased to note that I
am the first proper Green Minister to appear before the Committee
because one cannot count the Deputy Prime Minister in that sense.
78. I am sure you are not suggesting that
Dawn Primarolo was an improper Green Minister.
(Mr Rooker) I was not, but the inquiry was somewhat
different, I understand.
79. You have proved more enthusiastic, anyway.
(Mr Rooker) I certainly am enthusiastic and I
applaud the role of the Committee. Someone said it is akin to
the Public Accounts Committee. Having served on that for two years,
I applaud that, but there is a big difference of course. You will
have the great advantage they do not have and that is to question
policy. That I think is a very important aspect of the work of
this Committee. We are here, at your disposal, to do our best
to answer the questions that the Committee has.
Chairman: We wanted
to start off, first of all, with one or two questions about the
role of the Green Ministers Committee which I understand exists
and of which you are a member.
Mrs Brinton
80. We are all delighted to see you here
today. I think people have wondered to start with exactly what
our Committee was about and what is an Environmental Audit Committee.
I think that they know that now, but we are a little confused
as to the Green Ministers Committee. I was wondering initially
if you could tell us something in a bit of detail about exactly
what you do on it and what is your role? Is it actually an exchange
of discussion points or views or policy between yourself and the
other Green Ministers from different departments, or is there
a reportage role? Are you required to report on MAFF's performance
in relation to very specific tasks and issues? As yet, have you
been required to demonstrate to the Green Ministers Committee
how MAFF has undertaken environmental appraisals? I am sure that
it has undertaken environmental appraisals but has there been
a requirement on you to report on that?
(Mr Rooker) The answer to the last question is
no. You are quite right though to question the role. We first
met in the summer. I think it was a date in July when all the
Green Ministers met. I freely admit I was a few minutes late and
missed the photo-call. We had a good discussion. We did not go
into a great deal of depth about our role and I suppose in some
ways the advent of a Cabinet sub-committee is new. Jack Cunningham
sits on the Cabinet Committee (ENV). Even the way Green Ministers
were appointed was not systematic. You will see from the list
of colleagues in government, that represented these is a range
of responsibilities within departments. For example, in MAFF I
freely admit that most of the policy areas on a day to day basis
that would be covered by, let us say, agriculture and sustainable
development would be looked after by Bernard Donoughue, who is
a Member of the Lords of course, and Eric Morley. Jack Cunningham
and I took the view though that we were concerned to give this
issue a high profile role in the department which is why it was
decided by Jack Cunningham that I, as his Deputy Minister of State,
should take on the role of Green Minister outwith my other departmental
responsibilities. We were keen to put the most senior junior minister
in as the Green Minister even though, on a day to day basis, many
of the issues that you may raise I do not deal with but then again
I am Jack Cunningham's deputy so I am expected to know what is
going on. We are not sure how different departments appointed
their Green Ministers, for example. That may be a question that
you can ask other departments. Certainly, there were Green Ministers
in the previous government and therefore this is not something
new. Essentially though I think their role was probably more on
the housekeeping of the department side, rather than on the strategy
and the policy side. I suppose one difference between the previous
government and this will be that we intend to have this policy
and strategy role of greening the whole of the policy areas, rather
than just making sure we switch off the lights and recycle the
waste paper, important though those things are. Our role will
be beyond that. Obviously, I have to say that we are in the very
early days, I suppose like this Committee, in developing the role
and I will certainly be looking forward to the guidance you can
give when you have questioned a range of Green Ministers from
other government departments.
Mrs Brinton: Thank
you very much for that and also for the openness with which you
have told us that things are very much starting afresh and developing.
I am particularly interested in the final point that you made
in terms of how Green Ministers are appointed. I am very encouraged
that, as far as MAFF is concerned, it has decided to appoint the
most senior junior minister as Green Minister, but it certainly
does seem that there is not coherence in that way of thinking
necessarily in other departments, because in some other departments
we have noted before that it has been the most junior minister.
I think we would want to ask other people and consider further
as to how people are chosen. Are they chosen on seniority? Are
they chosen on demonstrated parliamentary interest in environmental
matters etc? Thank you very much for starting us off with that.
Dr Iddon
81. Can I ask how often this committee is
expected to meet in the course of a year?
(Mr Rooker) The Green Ministers Committee?
82. Yes.
(Mr Rooker) That I do not know. It could be as
and when Michael Meacher wants to have a round table discussion
across all the departments. There is the Cabinet Committee on
the Environment which might have an input to that. The Green Ministers
Committee, from memory, is not an on-going committee, meeting
regularly. There have probably been two meetings. One was an all-day
meeting just before Christmas which I freely admit I was unable
to attend. Someone attended in my place.
Chairman
83. You had an official attend in your place?
(Mr Rooker) Yes, I did.
84. Does that not devalue the whole thing?
(Mr Rooker) In some ways, I regret that I could
not do it. This is one of the great problems, I am afraid. You
are told when a committee is meeting and your diary is locked
in with other responsibilities. I do not recall what it was, from
memory. It was certainly five or six days before Christmas. I
know it was not the turkey farm because I cancelled that.
85. The turkeys would have been pleased
about that.
(Mr Rooker) I had not seen turkeys slaughtered
and I have responsibility for the Meat Hygiene Service. I am trying
to get round to see how every kind of beast is slaughtered so
I still have to do poultry and pigs.
86. If you do not go to an important all-day
meeting and you send an official, no doubt there was something
else and that means that was more important in your mind; yet
you have just said that it was important enough for you, the senior
minister, to be appointed but you do not go to the second meeting.
(Mr Rooker) That is correct. That is as it works.
Those are the practical realities. I do not say this as a criticism
but it would not be the first Cabinet sub-committee where officials
have turned up instead of ministers. This was regrettable but
it was just one of those things. It was totally unavoidable. I
will check the diary and find out what it was that day but it
just was not possible. I would not say it devalued the outcome
and the impetus in the department in terms of what we are looking
at and the issues you will be raising.
Mr Dafis
87. You would see that as exceptional, would
you?
(Mr Rooker) Yes.
88. A failure to attend by a minister would
be an exceptional event?
(Mr Rooker) Yes, it would be.
Mr Baker
89. Is there another date fixed for the
next one?
(Mr Rooker) I am unaware of one.
90. So there have been two meetings since
the election and there is no date fixed for another one?
(Mr Rooker) To the best of my knowledge, there
is no date fixed for another round table discussion by the Green
Ministers of all departments.
Mr Grieve
91. Thank you for the openness of your comments.
When we started along this process of following along the Greening
Government, it was rather put to us, I think particularly by the
Deputy Prime Minister, that one of the great initiatives was going
to be this grouping together of junior ministers from each government
department as part of the Greening Government programme. Your
comments suggest to me two things and I would be interested to
hear your reaction to them. The first is that you rather emphasised
the role of the Cabinet Committee on the Environment, which suggests
a rather more traditional line of approach is in fact doing the
decision making. Secondly, you have painted a picture of the actual
meetings between the junior ministers, the Green Ministers of
each department, which slightly gives the impression that no one
is quite sure where they are supposed to be going and what they
are supposed to be doing, and it is not going to be providing
the motor force towards Greening Government at all. Do you have
any reaction to that?
(Mr Rooker) I do. I am sorry if I have given a
false impression. When we had our first meeting in July of all
the Green Ministers, we had a very, very general discussion. There
were at that meeting a couple of officials in place of ministers.
Chairman
92. So it is not exceptional for officials
to attend this committee?
(Mr Rooker) It is not exceptional, no.
93. I thought you just said it was.
(Mr Rooker) That was a question to me personally.
I would consider it exceptional if I could not get to these meetings.
Mr Dafis
94. In that sense, you are exceptional?
(Mr Rooker) I suppose in some ways the key decision
that came out of the July meeting with Green Ministers was the
agreement to have, during the course of the autumn, bilaterals
with Michael Meacher, which we did. I have not added this on because
that does not count as a committee meeting. We have all had individual
discussions with Michael Meacher as Chair of the Green Ministers
about aspects of our department, not just the housekeeping but
the policy side as well. I think there were two bilaterals left
to do when I saw Michael so he has probably completed them all
by now. That work was ongoing. The Cabinet Committee on the Environment
is obviously the senior committee. Let us not beat about the bush.
The Green Ministers effectively, as non-Cabinet members, are carrying
forward the day to day work within their departments. If there
is any reporting back to do, that reporting back will be through,
in my case, Jack Cunningham, to the Cabinet Committee on the Environment.
The chain of command would go that way. The aspect of the Green
Ministers meeting as a whole is at a slightly different level.
It would be a different kind of discussion, frankly.
Mr Grieve
95. That is very helpful. What usefulness
do you see coming out of your meetings with your fellow Green
Ministers of other departments? What contribution do you think
that is making as opposed to the Cabinet Committee or your bilateral
meetings?
(Mr Rooker) I would probably have to say not as
much as the bilaterals and probably not as much as I will get
out of this meeting this morning, the reason being I do not know
by definition the nuances and pressures in other departments across
government, in terms of the policy and the strategy side of it.
I can guess some of the housekeeping aspects of various departments.
Departments are incredibly different in size and nature of work.
Some are very much office-centred departments. We are not. We
have a huge estate with 240 locations. That is not very typical
of government departments. Because government departments are
so different, you probably would not get as much out of those
meetings. It would be more how things are in the sense of where
we are unhappy or where there are issues that we want to take
forward or where one department's work may impinge on another
department.
Chairman
96. Could I come back to how the committee
operates? You have had two meetings, one which you could not attend.
(Mr Rooker) It was a half day, by the way, not
a full day. Mr Coates attended.
97. You have not yet decided how to operate.
For example, it has not been decided that you should report back
regularly on the policies and programmes of your department to
the Green Committee.
(Mr Rooker) There are two committees here. Reporting
back to which committee?
98. It has not been decided by Green Ministers
that you report back on the policies and programmes of your department
to the Green Ministers Committee.
(Mr Rooker) We will do in due course. We had the
meeting in July. We then had a series of bilaterals. There was
the half day meeting in December. It was always known that the
work of this Committee would start as well, but you are correct
in a sense. We have not had a decision or a call from the Chairman
to report back to the Green Ministers Committee, but we have had
the bilateral discussion with Michael Meacher. I talked to him
more in detail about MAFF than he would have understood from a
discussion of 20 other people.
99. Our understanding of the work of the
Green Committee was that, as you have rather said, it was not
necessarily there to take big policy decisions, which is the role
of the Cabinet Environment Committee, chaired by the Deputy Prime
Minister. The role of the Green Ministers Committee is to monitor,
to make sure that sustainable development and environmental protection
are kept at the heart of the department's work and to ensure that
your policies and programmes have that aspect fully on board.
If you have not set up a system for monitoring or reporting back
to that committee, what is it doing?
(Mr Rooker) It, as a committee, is not, the fact
is the Green Ministers are. In due course—and I do not know
when due course will be but I would imagine it will be some time
this spring or summer, particularly following your inquiries;
I do not know how long it will be before you get through all Green
Ministers, for example—in the preparation for today in various
parts of MAFF I am told some 60 people were involved. I have not
been briefed by 60 people obviously but at various times 60 people
have had an input into looking at our programme for the green
housekeeping side and sustainable development across the whole
range of MAFF policies to pull them together. We will be in a
position, as we are reporting and making clear to yourselves following
our memo and the question and answer session—to report back.
The Comprehensive Spending Review is an important factor for every
department. This will take some time to conclude but some key
issues as far as MAFF are concerned are tied up with the Comprehensive
Spending Review and we are still in those discussions at the present
time. There are some key decisions on key areas of policy still
to be decided upon.
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