Examination of witnesses (Questions 40
- 59)
TUESDAY 23 JUNE 1998
SIR ANDREW
TURNBULL, MR
JOHN BALLARD,
MR BRIAN
LEONARD and MR
RICHARD HILLIER
40. This year, before the summer, after
the summer?
(Mr Leonard) I hope it will be this year.[2]
41. And how many environmental appraisals
of policy have been conducted by the Department?
(Mr Leonard) I am not aware of a number, of that;
each departmental policy is required to consider the impact on
the environment, and appraisal can be done in different ways.
The most important approach is for it to be considered at the
outset of a policy, and my Directorate is consulted frequently
about that; but, formal environmental appraisals, I do not have
a list of how many have been done.
42. But do you get them; what is the loop
of accountability there?
(Mr Leonard) The accountability is for the part
of the Department producing the policy to demonstrate that it
has considered environmental issues, and the Environmental Protection
Directorate is responsible for advising them when they need advice.
The Green Minister for the Department has said that she wishes
to have reports on all the environmental appraisals done in the
Department, and that is being put into place. We are also introducing
a range of other measures in relation to the decisions of Green
Ministers, to help various parts of the Department understand
how to do environmental appraisals, and we published a document
a few weeks ago, called Policy Guidance on Policy Appraisal and
the Environment. We are working on a more technical guide, at
a more technical level for economists and other specialists, on
how to do that, and we are introducing other measures, such as
workshops and training, and we are looking at the possibility
of producing strategic advice for Departments.
43. To other Departments?
(Mr Leonard) To other Departments and to our own
Department.
44. To what extent are other Departments
following you; are they really welcoming this? After all, it is
a bit of a culture change, is it not, integration, cross-policy
thinking?
(Mr Leonard) Yes, it is, and some of them have
been summoned before the Environmental Audit Committee and asked
to say what they are doing on this. Across Whitehall, we have
a discussion group which shadows Green Ministers, and it is a
major aspect of that group to share best practice, to look at
how things are being done on environmental appraisals, how they
can be improved. There is a lot more improvement that can be achieved.
45. Early in May, there was a very amusing
report in The Observer about Eland House. We had descriptions
there of people having to flail their arms about in order to turn
the light on, problems with windows not being cleaned and systems
for controlling the environment running amok. Have you any comment
on that, and are the people using Eland House now completely happy
working there?
(Mr Leonard) I do not work in it.
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) Let me answer that because
Brian does not work in Eland House. He works in Ashdown House.
46. I think there are problems there, too,
but never mind, I think most of them are at Eland?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) These were the two buildings
into which the old DoE was to move, out of Marsham Street, Eland
in particular is environmentally a very sophisticated building.
We insisted on a high standard of environmental systems, such
as Combined Heat and Power, we are using an air-conditioning system
called DVCC (Displaced Ventilation Chilled Ceiling).
Mr Olner
47. It sounds very complicated.
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) What it is is sort of cold-water
radiators in the ceiling and then the air is pushed up from below.
It avoids that feature of many air-conditioning systems, where
you cool all the air, make it very cold and then expend a lot
of energy pumping it round the building. We also have these additional
panes of glass which slide up and down on the outside in order
to control the amount of solar gain. Now all this requires a lot
of tweaking and tuning, and it is getting better as time goes
by, but it was clear that it was not accurately tuned when we
arrived. The lighting, the answer is that there are no light switches
in——
Dr Whitehead
48. Is that another way of saying it did
not work?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) No.
Christine Butler
49. It was not optimal anyway, was it?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) The settings were not optimally
set at the time we moved in.
50. But what about the more serious concerns
that we hear about, such as repeated flooding and the overloaded
computer network?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) We had two floods.
51. Did they do a lot of damage?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) They did do quite a lot
of damage, at least the first one did. The water got into the
main rising electricity main at the back. We think it was probably
due to the faulty control of water pressures, and getting surges
out of the pumps. Touch wood, we have not had anything in the
last year. These things are regrettable, maybe they are a commentary
on the great construction industry for which we are the sponsor,
but gradually I think we are sorting these problems out.
52. And a lot of this, the computer network
system, it was overloaded, that was playing up as well, was it
not, but it was the whole bit, we have to say, it was a bit of
a disaster at first, and this was a much lauded and very expensive
venture. Are the public getting value for money in this?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) If you put the question
to me, did we move in to Eland House too early——
53. I did not.
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) I would say that we did
move in too early, we were rather obsessed with making sure that
we moved in during the Christmas/New Year recess of 1996-97, and
bits of the building were not—there were some floors that
were available and some floors that were not. When we came to
Ashdown House, we said, "Well, we're not making this mistake
again, we are not moving into Ashdown House until this building
is ready." And the move into Ashdown House has gone a great
deal more smoothly, as a result.
54. Are computer networks now working absolutely
optimally at Ashdown and at Eland?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) There are always questions
of reliability; they are not affected by the building, as such,
computer systems go up and they go down, but they are not as a
result of problems related to the building.
55. What are you doing about it?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) We are moving to a common
system. The old Department of Transport had one system and we
had another, and we are constantly upgrading it, and in about
two years' time we will have to, almost certainly, scrap this
system and move on to another. But, the system, I think the degree
of reliability is actually not bad at all, but it was interrupted
by the flood, which of course got into the electrics, and part
of Eland House was affected. But, as it works now, in Great Minster,
Ashdown and Eland, the problems of the IT system are the problems
of IT systems everywhere, rather than problems of the buildings.
Mr Bennett
56. Can I just ask how much this all cost?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) The three, taken together,
the Department of Transport moving into Great Minster House and
the DoE's move into Ashdown and Eland, it is very nearly £100
million.
57. And how much did the things that went
wrong cost; they are presumably not covered by insurance?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) We are still in dispute
about that; it goes back, was this the fault of a component, was
it the fault of the baseboard, was it the fault of a fit-out,
was it the fault of the consulting engineers, was it the fault
of the way we ran it.
58. That is really who is going to pay for
it, is it not; how much did it actually cost to put it right?
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) I do not know if I have
got an exact figure, but I should think it is probably close to
seven figures.
Christine Butler
59. That is a lot.
(Sir Andrew Turnbull) Yes.
2 Note by witness: The model improvement programme
is in the process of being implemented in all Departments and
Green Ministers are currently considering how to report progress. Back
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