Examination of witnesses (Questions 140
- 162)
TUESDAY 23 JUNE 1998
SIR ANDREW
TURNBULL, MR
JOHN BALLARD,
MR BRIAN
LEONARD and MR
RICHARD HILLIER
Mr Olner
140. Could we perhaps, in this final quarter
of an hour, turn our attention to the Health and Safety Commission
and Executive. Could you perhaps tell the Committee what the final
figure for workplace fatalities was in 1996-97?
(Mr Hillier) In 1996-97, the rate was 1.2 per
100,000 workers, the fatality rate.
141. Has it been possible to determine a
reason for the rise in fatalities, since the last annual report?
(Mr Hillier) We were very concerned about that
and we have done quite a lot of work in relation to it, and the
puzzle really was whether it was a blip, a sort of fortuitous
blip, up, or whether there was some underlying, endemic cause
of it.
142. It is strange terminology, a "fortuitous
blip"; it does not sound very good for those on the receiving
end?
(Mr Hillier) Unfortunate blip, I should say. The
rate in the United Kingdom, of course, is the lowest in Europe,
and so, given that it is at a relatively low level, and I must
not be complacent about that, one might get variations from year
to year. Now we have had the early data from this last year and
we were obviously very closely concerned to see what would happen
in 1997-98, and the indications are, and we are still cleaning
up the figures, that the rate is now back down to what it was
the year before last, which was the lowest on record. So I do
not want to draw too much comfort from that, but it is going in
the right direction at the moment.
143. But have they revised their strategy,
in the Health and Safety Executive, as a result of that rise?
(Mr Hillier) Yes, I think we did take some important
steps, because when you looked at where the accidents were happening
it was quite obvious that there were big rises in agriculture
and construction, which are notoriously hazardous industries,
so we concentrated more resources on that. We did a number of
specific things in those industries to try to raise the profile
of health and safety and to get the rates down. And, again, the
early evidence is that that has happened. For instance, in agriculture,
we undertook what we call a blitz, that is put a whole lot of
inspectors, in a concentrated period of time, visiting a lot of
farms. So we visited something like 4,500 farms, we issued about
a thousand enforcement notices, we prosecuted 14 cases, and, among
other things, that had the result of raising the profile very
smartly in that sector.
144. Could you perhaps advise us what the
asbestos-related statistics are?
(Mr Hillier) I cannot tell you what the current
statistics are, but, of course, the biggest problem, as you will
know, from asbestos is that we are reaping the harvest of actions,
or inactions, in earlier years, before we understood the science
of asbestos; so that, from now, for the foreseeable future, well
into the millennium, there are going to be about 3,000 people
dying from asbestos-related diseases. The current hazard in asbestos
is to do with asbestos which is buried in buildings, lining walls,
and so on, and people do not know where it is, that is one area
where the Commission is giving a lot of attention to how best
we can ensure that we take full account of the risks associated
with that. There is also the whole question about white asbestos,
and what we do in relation to prohibition of white asbestos, which
is in the Commission's sights at the moment.
145. Have you deliberated on that, have
you come to a conclusion about white asbestos?
(Mr Hillier) The intention is to produce some
regulations towards the end of the year, but before we did that
we needed to be sure that the alternatives to white asbestos were
safer than the white asbestos itself, so a study has been carried
out by the Institute of Environment and Health, and the results
are now being peer reviewed, if you like, with various other committees,
and we hope to have the results of that at the end of July. But
the indications from that study are that, taken in the round,
the substitutes are safer than white asbestos, so the Commission
will take its decisions in the light of that conclusion.
Mr Bennett
146. So when will people have to stop using
white asbestos?
(Mr Hillier) Only Ministers can tell you that.
The Commission will give its view, later on this year, and we
will have to see what Ministers then decide.
147. So the regulations could be placed
before Parliament before the autumn?
(Mr Hillier) Yes, that is the sort of timescale
we have in mind.
148. These efficiency gains, that are supposed
to have been made by the Health and Safety Executive, can you
give me some examples of them?
(Mr Hillier) They range from rather large initiatives,
like introducing our Focus computer system to our Field Operations
Directorate, and that results in direct inputting of data and
reports, and so on, by the inspectors themselves——
149. So the inspectors can spend more time
out inspecting and less time copying up the results?
(Mr Hillier) They can put it straight in, so when
they have visited an establishment they can report directly into
the system, rather than going through a whole lot of bureaucratic
byways, and that is where you cut out a lot of work.
150. So you have cut out the administration;
does that mean the money is being spent on more inspectors?
(Mr Hillier) It has, largely, because, if you
look at our staff numbers, the result of these efficiencies has
been that we have lost staff, overall, we have had to lose staff
because of what has been happening to public expenditure, and
we have managed to make ends meet, effectively, by introducing
a range of different efficiencies. And so what has tended to happen
has been that we have protected, as far as possible, the front-line
staff, the front-line inspection staff, and it is the administrative
back-up, people in my sort of area, resources and planning area,
who have taken a bit more of the hit.
151. So are there actually more inspectors
now than there were?
(Mr Hillier) No, there are not, because the declining
resource line has meant that we have had to make some cuts there,
and I think it was in about the last four years we have reduced
by about 80 inspectors, overall, who are actually inspecting,
in Inspecting Directorates. But the situation has changed this
year, because the Government has given us an extra £4.5 million,
in 1997-98. The bulk of that money will go onto recruiting new
inspectors; in fact, that is what we are doing at the moment.
So we can expect the numbers to rise, assuming that we get a good
outcome from the CSR, the Comprehensive Spending Review.
152. The extra inspectors were for last
year, were they not?
(Mr Hillier) The extra money is coming this year,
and, as I say, we are recruiting at the moment.
153. So, really, the efficiency gains have
not been something that actually people working in industry have
noticed, it is merely doing the same job cheaper?
(Mr Hillier) It depends what you mean by that.
I think we have managed to keep up our key outputs, in many areas,
and this——
154. What do you consider your key outputs?
(Mr Hillier) I do not know if we are going to
come on to resource accounting, but we have produced——
155. I think we are moving in that direction,
yes.
(Mr Hillier) Right. We produced an output performance
analysis last year, in which we list the key output measures,
and there are ten of them, and on the operational side, and I
will leave to one side at the moment the policy outputs, because
there are some important ones there, but a key output would be
to maintain, as far as possible, our regulatory contact rate.
And, in fact, we are proposing an increasing line in our regulatory
contacts, because the Commission holds to the view that it is
important to maintain our visibility, and it has a regime, a published
regime, under which the objective is to inspect every high-risk
establishment once a year, and, every medium-risk establishment,
to make a regular contact with it, a regulatory contact with it,
once in every six years, on average.
156. Is there a correlation between the
risk and the number of fatalities?
(Mr Hillier) There does not seem to be. Of course,
there are going to be leads and lags in this. And another factor
we should not forget is that we tend to focus on the injuries
and fatality statistics on the safety side; some of the figures
on the health side are much more difficult to grapple with, and
involve not just occupational risks but also societal risks.
157. Just going back to those prosecutions
for a second, were the penalties the courts meted out reasonable?
(Mr Hillier) No. We think they are too low, and
you would expect us to say that. The average for all courts is
just over £5,000 a year, at the last count, and we do not
think that the courts are taking sufficient account of some of
the more serious offences.
158. There are two approaches, are there
not: one is to persuade them to, within the scales, go for higher
on the scale; the other is actually to change the legislation
and to put in tougher penalties, in the first place?
(Mr Hillier) There is quite a lot of scope, without
changing the law, for quite heavy penalties to be levied against
people who recklessly breach the law, and so, without getting
into the question of whether you change the law, as I say, there
is quite a lot of scope for the courts to do more, and I think
the Government is with us on that, and there are consultations
taking place between Departments about how we can raise the profile
of health and safety, if you like, among magistrates.
159. Resource accounting, it is on the timescale
to meet the Treasury's deadline?
(Mr Hillier) I listened to what John Ballard said
on the DETR side, and I sort of tick most of that. It is tempting
fate a little, but I think we are slightly better placed than
the Department is. You heard about all their difficulties, we
are a more homogeneous organisation, we are ahead of the pack.
We did produce our OPA last year, which is, I think, I am boasting
a little on our behalf, but I think it was the first in Whitehall,
and we have tweaked it a little this year. So I think we are doing
reasonably well, and we are feeling quite comfortable about our
position.
Mr Olner
160. Could I ask you if customer satisfaction
is a valid measure to judge your effectiveness by?
(Mr Hillier) Yes, and no. Who are our customers,
is one question, but you cannot expect people who are feeling
our regulatory impact necessarily to feel grateful for that. However,
we do have an awful lot of people who come to us for help and
who come to us to purchase things, and we do monitor what they
think about us.
161. How many people who come to you for
help are you allowed to help, or do help?
(Mr Hillier) We can only go by whether they say
they are satisfied. Sometimes we might give them an answer which
might not be terribly helpful to them, but, nevertheless, it is
the answer we have to give, given the situation. And the figure
that we have is that, year on year, something like 86, 87 per
cent of people who seek help from us are satisfied with what they
are told by us, and with the timeliness, and so on, of how we
deliver our help.
162. Some of the previous comments that
Mr Bennett made, about the lack of inspectors, that has not sort
of really closed that down a little; you have not been able to
say to somebody, "Sorry, we can't help you because we haven't
got any inspectors"?
(Mr Hillier) I think quite a lot of people would
like inspectorial help to come and advise them, I have met a lot
of people myself who would like some free advice, by which they
mean a highly expensive inspector; not necessarily people who
are in very hazardous industries. We have a limited inspector
resource and we have to focus it on the areas of greatest risk,
and that is what we try to do.
Mr Olner: On that
note, Mr Hillier, Sir Andrew, I would like to thank you and your
team for coming and presenting evidence. I think you will gather,
by the amount of time you have been sitting down there, that what
you have had to say was of supreme interest to the Committee.
Thank you very much.
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